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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:00 am 
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Thank you enemy ace and I apologize for my knee-jerk reaction/statement to your post about knowing the other side of the story. To the victor goes the spoils...that has been the case for a very long time. The victors always write the history books as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:46 am 
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Location: Belgium
Enemy Ace : the way you rewrite the history, is simply disgusting (And I'm very very polite)

In France, Belgium publicly rewriting history like you did, bring you to face lawsuits... Not less and it happened in near past.

Quote:
Actually, the local population had been very clearly informed that they were to stay home and off the roads, and that partisan type activity would not be tolerated

So, you really think that you could occupied a country and simply decide what the population could or couldn't do, and hope that YOUR rules will be strictly followed ? Are you serious ?

Quote:
In response, the local "Maquise" kidnapped a small group of German soldiers, tortured and murdered them

Fact only advanced by the advocats of the few SS prosecuted in the 50's. No proof and no evidence of that.
Basic law school tactics : try to demonstrate that you were not the agressors but only defend yourself.

The reality is : some german soldier were killed during a combat following an ambush. Of course, the Germans were angry by that, but where in the "rules of war", loosing soldier give you the right to kill wife and children in represail ???
Because to remember the fact, the SS put dozens of children and their mothers in the church, put the fire and wait outside ready to kill each people who will manage to escape the fire.

Quote:
To this day there are older people in the area who will not talk to or do business with each other

One more manipulation, the reality is the German succeded to rally some local population to them. There is a word for this kind of people : "collaborator". And yes, after the war there was conflit between some people and these cowards.

Quote:
Yes, when fighting against those who DO NOT fight "soldier to soldier" it has always been a tactic to hold local leaders and the families of local opponents in custody.

Yes, and deported them to concentration camp and we all know the following steps after that. (I necessary if could tell you the story of some members of my familly, member of the resistance and deported in concentration camp)

Quote:
This has been true throughout the recorded history of warfare and is true to this day

Second basic and poor law school argument "We were not the only ones to do that, so we are not guilty".

Quote:
attack without any uniforms or insignia to identify themselves in direct violation of the laws of war/ Geneva convention they were "freedom fighters"

Honestly, I never expected to see a German invoking the Geneva convention to defend what the Nazi did during WWII...
Yes, some resistance troop didn't have distinctive insignia, but compared to how the German violated ALL the Geneva convention during all the war.... It's just ridiculous advancing this kind of arguments.
(As far I know the unarmed American soldiers murdered during the Battle of the Bulge had full uniform, insignia, etc)

Yes, the resistance is not 100% percent right and some actions were on the edge of the "rules of the war", but that never legitimate that the Nazis did.

Quote:
I believe that the "Resistance" bears a large share of the blame

Bad strategic decision ? Yes, they undervalued the level of actrocity they could wait from the SS
But that change nothing in the fact that the SS are 100% responsible of the massacre.
Your reasoning is absurd : pushing a bit further and you will say the Allied are all responsible of every atrocity of the war: if they had surrender in 1940, the poor German soldiers would have not been forced to defend themselve to save their lifes and the WWII would have ended in 1940.

I complete the sentence of my previous message : We have forgiven but not forgotten and we will never accept that people minimize the facts and rewrite them.

I suppose this threads will be locked in the very near future...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:56 am 
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Iclo - Please note (I understand) Enemy Ace is an American living in Germany. More later perhaps.

Regards,

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:08 am 
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Location: Belgium
JDK wrote:
Iclo - Please note (I understand) Enemy Ace is an American living in Germany. More later perhaps.

Regards,

I don't attack the people, so no matter who he is or where he cames from.

Simply, knowing what happens and the level of atrocity, I will never accept tentative to distribute the responsabilty of what the Nazis did.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:24 pm 
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Location: Wiesbaden, Germany
Iclo,
I am sorry you are so upset. I have never said that what happened in Oradour was defensible. However, If you want to debate revisionist history then I strongly suggest you delve into what is being taught about WW2 and it's causes both in the USA and in Europe. There is no time given to Stalin's atrocities in WW1 and after, The Ukraine, the battles between the Freicorps and the communists for control of Germany after WW1 and prior to the rise of national socialism, etc etc.

"So, you really think that you could occupied a country and simply decide what the population could or couldn't do, and hope that YOUR rules will be strictly followed ? Are you serious ?" -Iclo
Darn right, I spend a lot of time in Southwest Asia and the NATO/ISAF forces have curfews, you for darn sure don't want to get caught out in Kabul after 11 p.m. Baghdad also had a curfew when the military was there. So, the German military order for civilians to stay off the roads and in their homes during the Invasion of Normandy was not only legal and proper but also probably saved civilian lives so they wouldn't get strafed by P-47's or something. (see, there's a warbird tie-in to all this)

"Fact only advanced by the advocats of the few SS prosecuted in the 50's. No proof and no evidence of that.
Basic law school tactics : try to demonstrate that you were not the agressors but only defend yourself." -Iclo

The presiding Judge and Jury must have had some evidence or testimony or all the men involved would have been hanged or sentenced in absentia. Similar to the Joachim Peiper case at Malmedy, things get a little murkier when people stop being hysterical and start to ask the question "why did this happen?"

"One more manipulation, the reality is the German succeded to rally some local population to them. There is a word for this kind of people : "collaborator". And yes, after the war there was conflit between some people and these cowards."
Um, No, the old people I met were angry because had the resistance just sat tight they would have been liberated in a matter of a few days, which they were. Their families would not have been killed for no reason. And I haven't heard of any collaborators in that area, because it is rural farming community that little to no real contact with the German Military.

"Yes, and deported them to concentration camp and we all know the following steps after that. (I necessary if could tell you the story of some members of my familly, member of the resistance and deported in concentration camp)"
Actually, if you had family members who were deported, they were lucky because ALL armies at the time shot un uniformed combatants on sight as a rule. Russian, German, US, ALL. Research the US execution of german spies in the USA for more on this.

"Honestly, I never expected to see a German invoking the Geneva convention to defend what the Nazi did during WWII.."
I have never heard of the Geneva convention being used as a defense, please tell us more.

"(As far I know the unarmed American soldiers murdered during the Battle of the Bulge had full uniform, insignia, etc)"
They were NOT unarmed and again you don't know the full story. But we'll save that for another post. Do you really think professional soldiers just decided on a whim to start machine gunning prisoners with the end of the war so close?

"Yes, the resistance is not 100% percent right and some actions were on the edge of the "rules of the war", but that never legitimate that the Nazis did."
No one has ever said that what happened was legitimate, legal, moral or anything other than horrible. If you really want to get your blood into a boil read more about Stalin and what the Red Army did in the countries they occupied.

"I suppose this threads will be locked in the very near future..."
I hope not, I think that any time events can be analyzed and people learn things, it is a good thing and makes for a strong and interesting forum. I think that the events of the last 100 years need to be examined and mined for lessons so that we can all understand, instead of reducing everything to a shortened comic book version of history.

I don't see your response as an attack, I think we can all benefit from seeing things from a different viewpoint. I would love to meet up some time and buy you a beer if I am ever in your area. I also happen to be an admirer of the Maquise, one of the most thrilling things I have been able to do was tour the Parisian catacombs with a lady who had been a resistance "runner". Extremely brave people who had really no hope of ever having their country back.
JDK, you are correct, I am an American, and perhaps having ancestors who fought on both sides of the American Civil War leads me to always find out the whole story. Being knee deep in our current military extravaganza in Southwest Asia also gives me an appreciation for understanding how what happens when troops are in contact can be misunderstood by those who are not in the fight and only see a small part of what actually happens...
-Robert

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:41 pm 
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Enemy Ace wrote:
"(As far I know the unarmed American soldiers murdered during the Battle of the Bulge had full uniform, insignia, etc)"
They were NOT unarmed and again you don't know the full story. But we'll save that for another post. Do you really think professional soldiers just decided on a whim to start machine gunning prisoners with the end of the war so close?

Why stop now, your on a roll. I'd be fascinated if anything to hear your synopsis. I know a bit as well. PM would be fine if you're not interested in posting publicly. Probably best to PM anyway as we're treading into an area not for The WIX Hangar consumption.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Thx for the PM Robert

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:32 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:08 am
Posts: 247
Location: Arizona
I would be interested in reading how "Enemy Ace" would defend the killing of 6 million men, women and children in the death camps. Or the persecution of the Jews from 1933 to 1945. Or the starting of WW II in Europe by Germany.

His justification for the Nazi massacre reminds me of the defense tactic of "blaming the victim" when all else fails.

Disgusting!!!


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