Examples of the toughness of the RAF during WW2

JDK · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:15 pm

No argument, Dave, I was just being clear it wasn't Duxford!

Mark Allen M wrote:

JDK wrote:

Some very interesting images. Where are you getting them from? Seems to be some confusion over the subjects...

I'd tell you but I don't want to be responsible for you losing days, weeks and months sitting behind a computer staring at photos, like I seem to be doing these days. I have three computer screens lined up, two for work, one for WIX

Don't worry about that - but do please provide your source...

Mark Allen M wrote:

JDK wrote:

Both Handley Page Halifaxes, not Lancasters. (Wing planform and fin and rudder shapes are distinct.)

I know that the upper photo is a Halifax with a portion of tail missing but the lower photo with the crew kind of looks like a Lanc to me. Also photo is labeled as such. Thx for the correction.

The British-built Lancaster had a different type mid-upper turret (not that'd be easy to tell here!) and a very distinctive taboo rail on a 'collar' around it. The Lancaster always had an oval fin and rudder shape, while the Halifax started with a triangular 'arrow' shape (as here, note the straight leading edge) that went to a slightly cropped rectangle. There are lots of other detail differences, including porthole rather than slit windows.

Mark Allen M wrote:

And in the "Duxford photo, that is now not Duxford" (thx again for the clarification) can you see the B-25 and what looks to be a few B-17's? Or am I seeing things again. :wink:

Credit to Dave for the Prestwick call. There are numerous trans-Atlantic Dakotas (C-47s) a couple of B-25 Mitchells, numerous Very Long Range Coastal Command Liberators and RAF Coastal(?) B-17 Flying Fortresses (top left, broad white tails) as well as a couple more probably dirty white on the taxiway further right - and a then rare C-54 (upper mid right).

Also the image may be reversed, I can't tell from the internal evidence, but certainly the catalogue number at the lower left is.

The British captured numerous Messerschmitt Bf 110 night fighters at the war's end, and one survives in the RAF Museum's Battle of Britain hall. See Phil Butler's 'War Prizes' for the full listing and histories on those.

Butler credits the painting shot as a (IWM) publicity shot, taken at Grove (Karup) as it was painted as 'Air Ministry 30' a corruption of the Air Min number system. It was indeed the same 110 as in Dan's photo, there at Farnborough, and was scrapped in 1946. Latter image is IWM MH4904, the former PRO AIR 40/2022.

Regards,

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7802

Dan K · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:20 pm

JDK wrote:

Butler credits the painting shot as a (IWM) publicity shot, taken at Grove (Karup) as it was painted as 'Air Ministry 30' a corruption of the Air Min number system. It was indeed the same 110 as in Dan's photo, there at Farnborough, and was scrapped in 1946. Latter image is IWM MH4904, the former PRO AIR 40/2022.

The posed details in "the painting shot" are really something... one of the Schwarzen removing (reinstalling?) the Schrage Musik from the rear cockpit... and the Oberfeldwebel supervising the painter. Note the eagle device has been removed from his visor cap, and his tunic has two empty thread loops where an award badge (pilot's badge? wound badge? iron cross?) was probably liberated recently by one of his captors. Makes one wonder what his association was with this aircraft.

Good stuff. :drink3:

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7802

JDK · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:15 pm

Just before anyone jumps to any erroneous conclusions, I was simply curious as to where Mark had found these photos. Several of them are familiar from the IWM, but also, like many of those wartime shots, are to be found, quite legitimately in other public and private collections.

I'm also not going to discuss the differences between copyright and licencing again, and it's not a point at issue here as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think I (or WIX members) really need 'protecting' - professionally I'm dealing with archives and sources all the time - it's the job - as well as my wife's job in different fields.

If Mark doesn't want to tell us, he doesn't have to, but it's a pity to start playing poker when others are laying down their cards.

FWIW, I was going to post in the appropriate thread, but I'll say here, now, that I thought Mark's account of exploring his dad's war experiences and close call on the carrier was one of the best recent threads on WIX, good to see such great participation, and, noted credit there to help from great (ex-)posters like Jack Cook. So I just get a bit wary when it goes all 'secret squirrel'.

Regards,

JDK · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:17 pm

Just to be clear, I wrote my post above just before Mark posted his comment, which is certainly a welcome step forward. Thanks!

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7802

JDK · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:32 pm

Mark Allen M wrote:

And as I stated in my last post, I would feel much better to have permission from the owner before I post a link to his collection. I'm sure he will be fine with it since it is a 'public' access link but just the same I better wait.

Absolutely (now) understood, and the right thing to do, I agree. Look forward to hopefully hearing more.

As to poker, I have this bridge you might like to buy... :wink:

Regards,

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7802

JDK · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:33 pm

Meanwhile, still no offers on this target port? (I don't know.) It'll be in the Med somewhere, given it's a Baltimore dropping the bombs.

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:22 am

The Mosquitoes in the shots of the Amiens Raid and the Gestapo Prison Raid are from No. 487 (NZ) Squadron, and some of those shots of Beaufighters attacking shipping are also No. 489 (NZ) Squadron, both Royal New Zealand Air Force squadrons.

I believe other Beaufighters in some of the shots are likely to be from RAAF squadron/s.

Great shots.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7802

Dave Smith · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:56 am

[quote="JDK"]No argument, Dave, I was just being clear it wasn't Duxford!

No offence taken, I should have added a smilie! Despite the reversed figures on the edge of the photo, it has been printed the right way round. I checked it with a book which has another Prestwick photo from that era.

I think that may be Trieste that the Baltimore has just bombed but I'm not sure. The mole/breakwater thing is quite common around the Adriatic.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7802

'nothernug · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 11:59 am

In the photo originally identified as "Duxford," if those are B24 Liberators then those Brit bombers were some really big planes! I have not paid much attention to UK bombers. Appears I've been missing something there...

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Examples of the toughness of the RAF during WW2

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