Warbird Information Exchange

I can't imagine why you'd land a four-engined bomber off-airport unless it was an emergency.

As far as leaving emotion out of it, I used the word crash instead of mishap or event in a passing reference to the loss, and I'm jumped on like a flak-damaged B-17 over Germany.
Sorry if it offended you. I diodn't realize it was such a touchy subject....
Try being less emotional.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

To be clear-
The landing did not cause any damage to the A/C.
It was performed with landing gear and flaps extended.
How can the landing then be described as a crash or an accident.
In short the destruction of the A/C had a cause other than its return to earth.
Lots of people visit this site to gather facts. Lets be factual in how we describe things.
Emotions in check, class dismissed.

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Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

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Don't Be A Dilbert!

Veering back to the center of this, do we know where this B-17 accident back in 1943 happened? Or has the original poster taken a powder?

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Thanks for the absolution.

But it's still an accident...a mechanical fault caused an off airport landing. The fault was not planned and was unexpected.
When an aircraft mishap is caused by a technical problem, it's still called an accident.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

hey guys I have some pencils on my desk. You can arrange them after you're done picking nits.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Not that I know much about anything really.....but how an "event" is classified by the authorities (FAA, NTSB, Military, etc) effects several things. In the case of civilian aircraft....I can see the type of classification driving which way an insurance company would go.

Back on focus.....seems Dec 12th and 13th 1943 was a tough two days for B-17's. For the B-17 experts....is that statiscally about average?

No, there were days that were much worse. Go to aviation archaeology.com and scroll through the monthly databases. The number of accidents and battle related losses are staggering, both stateside and overseas.

Steve

Approximately 335 B-17 aircraft were lost in fatal accidents in the US during 1941-1945. There were scores lost in non-fatal accidents too.
Approximately 540 B-24 aircraft were lost in fatal accidents in the US during 1941-1945. There were scores lost in non-fatal accidents too.

According to my research, over 15,500 US Army Air Forces personnel were killed in accidents in the continental US during 1941-1945.

Stats for 1943 US Army Air Forces accidents in the US:

2,270 Fatal Accidents
5,634 Fatalities
473 Serious injuries
574 Minor injuries
2,538 Aircraft damaged or destroyed

That is just the Army in the US in 1943; those numbers do not include USN, USMC, USCG, or Civilian losses.

1944 was almost as bad.

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"Welcome back Mr. Lasky."

But the loss occurred after they were no longer moving. The Belle had an onboard fire and the crew executed a successful off-field landing. All aboard successfully departed the aircraft and THEN she burned due to the lack of available fire suppression support.

If fire suppresion equipment had been available and used to success, are you saying the landing or incident would be categorized as a "crash", John?

If there was no fire and she arrived at her destination, the passengers departed and then she burned due to an unknown cause...would that be a "crash"?

Just my .02..

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He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
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DBF

FYI:

If the B-17 was involved in an "operational" accident, that is, an accident as a result of combat ops or battle damage, the vast majority of times it will not show up in the accident record.

TM

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"Welcome back Mr. Lasky."

What are the reasons for these groundings?


Chappie

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Brrring. Dispersal? TWO SECTIONS SCRAMBLE!!

For various reasons the owners decided to park them up rather than fly them. Pink Lady was reportedly grounded due to the age of the flight and ground crews, Evergreen don't seem interested in flying any of their collection (like Kalamazoo, much of Weeks' collection, Yanks, etc). The Palm Springs Museum got into a legal dispute with the Pond family after Bob's death, effectively grounding all the Pond-owned aircraft in the Museum, and from what I have seen and heard the Museum really don't have the infrastructure to operate many airworthy aircraft anyway. The Lyon Museum only fly their stuff once or twice a year, I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped altogether at some point. MoF in Seattle don't even display their B-17 to the public (except for a couple of months this summer), let alone fly it, but keep it locked in a shed on Boeing Field.

this is a touchy subject........ everybody doesn't want to see them prang or crash / but deep down who wouldn't want to see them fly??? it's a question of emotion. there are some birds so rare i ponder "shooting craps" in flying them. others that sit static we all dream........ it's a doubled edged sword.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Thanks for that Mike. Such a shame that an individual or musuem would ground a perfectly airworthy aircraft instead locating or trading for a non-airworthy example. And the deal with Pink Lady....ah...train younger crews!


Chappie

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Brrring. Dispersal? TWO SECTIONS SCRAMBLE!!

One point to consider though is that many of today's flying airplanes probably wouldn't exist at all had they not been allowed to fly. There wouldn't be the rescues, restorations, reproductions, and resurrections that we regularly see happening today because people wouldn't put that kind of money and effort into solely static display airplanes.

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Defending Stearmans on WIX since Jeff started badmouthing them back in 2005.