Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:04 pm
I object to the assumption that dumb announcing is what the novice or uneducated crowd wants. The fact is that aviation and warbird buffs are not more intelligent nor more educated, except about aero-trivia, than the average airshow goer. Every "normal" person I have talked to finds the standard airshow announcer patter just as intelligence-insulting as we do. Although silence would be better than what we have, an intelligent, mature commentator, even one not a super expert on the planes, would be better still. Imagine if your favorite sports announcers - Bob Costas and Joe Morgan, say - lent their talents to an airshow. There's nothing inherently wrong with announcers at airshows; the ones we have are just bad, that's all.
August
August
Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:41 pm
ZRX61 wrote:In that case they can RTFP.
?????
Mudge the achronimically challenged
Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:43 pm
Well, if you want to be an armchair critic you can listen online right here... right now...
http://www.airventure.org/radio/radio_embed.html
If I was taking notes, I'd already have a nice list of statements to "adjust."
Ryan
http://www.airventure.org/radio/radio_embed.html
If I was taking notes, I'd already have a nice list of statements to "adjust."
Ryan
Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:45 pm
Mudge wrote:ZRX61 wrote:In that case they can RTFP.
?????
Mudge the achronimically challenged
I agree. I got the "RTF" part, but what does the "P" stand for?
Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:48 pm
k5083 wrote:There's nothing inherently wrong with announcers at airshows; the ones we have are just bad, that's all.
August
I don't think they're all bad. I forgot what the guy's name is, but the one who does the announcing at the Reno Air Races is pretty good. Also, at the annual POF airshow, Ed Maloney does a major portion of the announcing. I love to just sit and listen to what he has to say, as he has a great deal of warbird trivia that I find extremely interesting.
Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:17 pm
I'd like to solve the puzzle...
"read the fine print"
yes?
"read the fine print"
yes?
Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:03 pm
Airlift48 wrote:I'd like to solve the puzzle...
"read the fine print"
yes?
I still don't get it. What point was ZRX61 trying to make?
Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:09 pm
Airlift, I've never attended Reno so I can't comment there. I have attended Chino several times over a 20-year span and don't recall Ed talking more than a few minutes at any of them. What I did hear was to the usual low standard, with even Ed's remarks being dumbed down way below what (having met him) I know he has to say, with his great knowledge and experience.
An observation about airshow announcing is that the more aviation-knowledgeable and experienced and the more connected with the airshow world the commentator is, the more insipid and cliche-ridden are the comments. The best airshow announcers I've heard are local radio personalities with no special airplane knowlkedge. I think this is because the latter know something I've learned in years of speaking. Whether I'm teaching computers to 7-year-olds, statistics to undergraduates, a legal seminar to a Fortune 500 client, or arguing a case to a judge, I always assume that my audience is smarter and more knowledgeable than me. A surprising amount of the time that is actually true, and when it isn't, the audience appreciates the compliment of being talked up and not down to. What I hear at airshows is the arrogant presumption that history and aerodynamics need to be dumbed down to a fourth grade level. It's just an issue of basic presentational competence.
August
An observation about airshow announcing is that the more aviation-knowledgeable and experienced and the more connected with the airshow world the commentator is, the more insipid and cliche-ridden are the comments. The best airshow announcers I've heard are local radio personalities with no special airplane knowlkedge. I think this is because the latter know something I've learned in years of speaking. Whether I'm teaching computers to 7-year-olds, statistics to undergraduates, a legal seminar to a Fortune 500 client, or arguing a case to a judge, I always assume that my audience is smarter and more knowledgeable than me. A surprising amount of the time that is actually true, and when it isn't, the audience appreciates the compliment of being talked up and not down to. What I hear at airshows is the arrogant presumption that history and aerodynamics need to be dumbed down to a fourth grade level. It's just an issue of basic presentational competence.
August
Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:19 pm
Last airshow I attended, among other things I was helping set up the PA system when the guy in charge of it suddenly turned on me with "Say, how would YOU like to be our announcer tomorrow? You have the perfect voice for it, and you know your way around the aircraft and what they're doing."
Geeze, I haven't run so fast or far since I can remember.....
Have to say one thing, though: it has been mildly amusing to daydream about how things might have gone had I been more daring and agreed to try it. I mean, they were serious! Try it on for size yourself, imagine yourself in my shoes on that one. Kinda fun in an OMG kinda way...
Geeze, I haven't run so fast or far since I can remember.....
Have to say one thing, though: it has been mildly amusing to daydream about how things might have gone had I been more daring and agreed to try it. I mean, they were serious! Try it on for size yourself, imagine yourself in my shoes on that one. Kinda fun in an OMG kinda way...
Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:28 pm
I've done it twice... in similar circumstances to POGO. Once for about 10 minutes in New Braunfels (horrible for me) and more recently when the J-3 Cub wouldn't start and one of the other ALS pilot (who was supposed to be the announcer) ended up using his plane for my spot. It's hard to think fast on your feet, have something decent to say, and not trip over your tongue. At the ALS picnic it was worse because I couldn't see what the planes were about to do, and they changed the flight a bit because of the substitution.
Partly because of that experience I can understand mistakes with narration, etc. but telling things that are factually inaccurate about the aircraft is a bigger beef in my book.
Ryan
Partly because of that experience I can understand mistakes with narration, etc. but telling things that are factually inaccurate about the aircraft is a bigger beef in my book.
Ryan
Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:38 pm
k5083 wrote:I have attended Chino several times over a 20-year span and don't recall Ed talking more than a few minutes at any of them. What I did hear was to the usual low standard, with even Ed's remarks being dumbed down way below what (having met him) I know he has to say, with his great knowledge and experience.
I have too. You obviously don't get there early enough during the airshow. Ed typically speaks for several hours during the early mornings and onto the first few flying events. Usually another announcer will take over primary duties after that. I have seen Ed speak later during the day, but typically it seems he tries to do his thing before it gets too hot outside and tapers off for the rest of the day. That's what I've noticed during the last 5 or so years.
k5083 wrote:What I hear at airshows is the arrogant presumption that history and aerodynamics need to be dumbed down to a fourth grade level. It's just an issue of basic presentational competence.
August
Perhaps that's not a bad thing, as there are many children and families that attend airshows. It's a cheap way to get out of the house and attend something local rather than spending thousands going to Disneyland/Disneyworld, etc. Remember our youth are the future of aviation and it's important for them to understand and comprehend what's going on. To talk way above their heads using complex words or technical jargon does a huge disservice to our younger people that attend, IMO. "Dumbing down" the announcements, as you say, is not necessarily a bad thing if it ensures the transfer of information - in other words - communication. August, maybe you're just way too darn smart to attend airshows. Remember, not everybody is a brainiac like you!
BTW, I think we need more older, overweight "reenactors" for our airshows as well! That, plus patriotic music, like Lee Greenwood's, "Proud to Be an American" will bring the crowds in droves!
Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:57 pm
Well, it varies, but generally I get there around 5:30 a.m., shoot pics at sunrise, then go back to the gates when they open to buy my wristband. It's amazing I've never noticed the narration by Ed. I will pay attention next time.
I think you have the wrong idea about communicating with youth. Never talk down or dumb down anything for kids. They are way smarter and more mature than you may think and are the quickest to resent being condescended to. Treat them like your equals and very soon, they will be. Certainly when I was a kid getting interested in aviation, made lifelong friends of older guys who talked to me the same as they did their peers, and no time for those who didn't.
August
I think you have the wrong idea about communicating with youth. Never talk down or dumb down anything for kids. They are way smarter and more mature than you may think and are the quickest to resent being condescended to. Treat them like your equals and very soon, they will be. Certainly when I was a kid getting interested in aviation, made lifelong friends of older guys who talked to me the same as they did their peers, and no time for those who didn't.
August
Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:02 pm
k5083 wrote:I think you have the wrong idea about communicating with youth. Never talk down or dumb down anything for kids. They are way smarter and more mature than you may think and are the quickest to resent being condescended to. Treat them like your equals and very soon, they will be. Certainly when I was a kid getting interested in aviation, made lifelong friends of older guys who talked to me the same as they did their peers, and no time for those who didn't.
August
I completely agree with the idea that you don't talk down to children... or young adults, either.
Ryan
Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:26 pm
RyanShort1 wrote:k5083 wrote:I think you have the wrong idea about communicating with youth. Never talk down or dumb down anything for kids. They are way smarter and more mature than you may think and are the quickest to resent being condescended to. Treat them like your equals and very soon, they will be. Certainly when I was a kid getting interested in aviation, made lifelong friends of older guys who talked to me the same as they did their peers, and no time for those who didn't.
August
I completely agree with the idea that you don't talk down to children... or young adults, either.
Ryan
I agree that you don't talk down to younger people in a condescending way. I'm just saying that you can't talk "over their heads" when it comes to technical stuff and jargon, that's all.
Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:43 pm
While there is some annoying announcing that happens, as someone who's been the chairman of a (small) fly-in/airshow before, who's had to fill in a couple times (briefly) being an ad-hoc announcer... and who's been lucky enough to get to sit in for a few minutes in the announcer's stand for a little while at a major airshow (as an observer, not as a commentator!), you have to keep in mind that this is NOT an easy job for anyone to do. The folks who do it are most often volunteers, and that no matter WHAT you say, some people will be unhappy. Explain things really simply? You piss off the aviation nuts. Explain it on a higher level? Most of the non-aviators will be lost or bored. Try to put history in context? OK, then which version of history? No matter what these guys say, there will always be many folks who nit-pick everything. Mis-speak something simple, not because you don't know what you're talking about but because you're been trying to speak about airplanes and keep up with the chaos while talking, for hours on end? Tens of thousands of people are just waiting to assume you're an idiot. I've been listening to EAA radio the last couple days, and today i heard the announcer talk about an "OV-1 Bronco" (it was a Mohawk)... 2 minutes later, he said "OV-1 Mohawk" so it was obvious he knew the difference. But I'm sure hundreds or thousands of folks all said to themselves "Geez, what a individual of questionable judgement!" over a simple slip of the tongue... as if they've never said something and had it come out just slightly wrong.
If there was little to no announcers, folks would be up in arms complaining how they don't know what's going on.
What bothers me more is the fact that so many of the cookie-cutter acro routines are, well, so cookie cutter in their music/announcing. At Oshkosh this year, I heard "I'm proud to be an American" played for 3 different acts, all in the space of one hour. Same with the same few tired songs most acro acts use (you know... the Top Gun theme, Aerosmith's "Livin' on the Edge", Van Halen's "Higher and Higher"... and so on.) A certain well-known monoplane acro pilot's act today (he's not a bad guy or anything so I won't name him here) began by playing the exact same tired rock song that the previous act concluded with, as did the pilot two acts prior to that, before the sound track became little more than a (very sleazy-sounding) cheeseball ad campaign for his engine manufacturer and major sponsor. Far from being a harmonious combination of aerobatics and music, this act (like many others) seemed to be little more than a kluged-together audio-visual MESS to appease a sponsor that just wanted to hear their name over and over and over again. Sadly, this is a "top shelf" performer, whom EVERY airshow-interested person on earth would recognize by name, aircraft, and color scheme.
Come on, guys and gals... it's not 1980 anymore... can't we find SOMETHING new in how we present acro to the world? Please? Anyone?
On the flip side, the all-female airshow Friday actually seemed quite notable for having far better music, overall... some was more modern, some was even out of the guitar-driven classic rock genre.
This was as observed over the Internet but I've been to enough major shows to know that the cookie-cutter effect is far worse in person.
Maybe that's all not totally warbird-related but if being dissatisfied with the announcers is the biggest thing you folks can find to whine about with modern airshows, then we must be doing pretty darn good.
(EDIT) I actually typed the word M0r0n, not "individual of questionable judgement!"... you've gotta be kidding me...
PS -
If there was little to no announcers, folks would be up in arms complaining how they don't know what's going on.
What bothers me more is the fact that so many of the cookie-cutter acro routines are, well, so cookie cutter in their music/announcing. At Oshkosh this year, I heard "I'm proud to be an American" played for 3 different acts, all in the space of one hour. Same with the same few tired songs most acro acts use (you know... the Top Gun theme, Aerosmith's "Livin' on the Edge", Van Halen's "Higher and Higher"... and so on.) A certain well-known monoplane acro pilot's act today (he's not a bad guy or anything so I won't name him here) began by playing the exact same tired rock song that the previous act concluded with, as did the pilot two acts prior to that, before the sound track became little more than a (very sleazy-sounding) cheeseball ad campaign for his engine manufacturer and major sponsor. Far from being a harmonious combination of aerobatics and music, this act (like many others) seemed to be little more than a kluged-together audio-visual MESS to appease a sponsor that just wanted to hear their name over and over and over again. Sadly, this is a "top shelf" performer, whom EVERY airshow-interested person on earth would recognize by name, aircraft, and color scheme.
Come on, guys and gals... it's not 1980 anymore... can't we find SOMETHING new in how we present acro to the world? Please? Anyone?
On the flip side, the all-female airshow Friday actually seemed quite notable for having far better music, overall... some was more modern, some was even out of the guitar-driven classic rock genre.
This was as observed over the Internet but I've been to enough major shows to know that the cookie-cutter effect is far worse in person.
Maybe that's all not totally warbird-related but if being dissatisfied with the announcers is the biggest thing you folks can find to whine about with modern airshows, then we must be doing pretty darn good.
(EDIT) I actually typed the word M0r0n, not "individual of questionable judgement!"... you've gotta be kidding me...
PS -