The Warbird Ride Market in Today's Economy

[bdk]

Anybody with a Corsair having a jump seat, contact me and I'll be certain that my checkbook has ample funds and I'll be more than happy to meet you at your convenience.

Planes of Fame in Chino. Ask about member supported rides.

http://www.planesoffame.org/

Incidentally, there seems to be no shortage of folks signing up for member supported rides.

[Earls]

[quote="Ryan Keough"]
Is the press paying attention and giving PR value despite smaller staffs, "lead with what bleeds" editorial pressure, and green reporters who (when it comes to WWII) don't know a B-25 from a B-52 and thought Jimmy Doolittle dropped the bomb on Hiroshima which made the Nazis surrender?
quote]

Ryan,

From my perspective in Los Angeles, this part of your post is a direct hit. As WW2 gets further in the past, fewer people learn about it, know about it, or want to explore its aircraft relics.

MOD Edited for unnecessary political pontification

Tom Neely

[Tom Moungovan]

Anybody with a Corsair having a jump seat, contact me and I'll be certain that my checkbook has ample funds and I'll be more than happy to meet you at your convenience.

Planes of Fame in Chino. Ask about member supported rides.

Thanks for the suggestion. I rode in their P-40 and also the SBD, but could not talk them into a ride in their F4U. Best they could do, and they were quite helpful with this, was to fly formation with the Corsair so I could get some air to air photos. I am still looking.

http://www.planesoffame.org/

Incidentally, there seems to be no shortage of folks signing up for member supported rides.

[Ryan Keough]

Is the press paying attention and giving PR value despite smaller staffs, "lead with what bleeds" editorial pressure, and green reporters who (when it comes to WWII) don't know a B-25 from a B-52 and thought Jimmy Doolittle dropped the bomb on Hiroshima which made the Nazis surrender?

Ryan,

From my perspective in Los Angeles, this part of your post is a direct hit. As WW2 gets further in the past, fewer people learn about it, know about it, or want to explore its aircraft relics.

We are a dying breed. The poison coming out of the educational systems and media across the states will lead one day to future politicians shutting this whole thing down either by geo-politcal shortages on fuel, or through legislation. Remember the radical left is running the show now and they are only getting started.

I used to think I could escape to Texas when it got real bad here in California, but Texas will be a Blue State within 8-12 years, so that only leaves Alaska!

Tom Neely

Tom,

In my experiences, it seems that the major markets... the top 10 MSAs (Metropolitan Statistical Area) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Statistical_Area are much less "tuned in" to WWII than the papers in, say, Redding CA or Lawrence KS. As a result, every paper may have a lead story on the local warbird ride tour in their town for the small cities, but the larger markets will only put a small 200 word blurb (if lucky) on the left lower side of page B20 on the day the planes depart. That's the irony... the places where the income-level to afford the ride are the hardest to tackle -- thus the reason why many turn to advertising (again, those markets are the most expensive too!).

It's heartening to hear that Seattle was good for the bombers this year and Denver was good for Aluminum Overcast I hear as well. Raubatz -- you have hit a lot of it on the head with your tactics! I especially like the referral fee idea... it adds incentive for the local organizers to market on your behalf.

I think your insight on the website being the first line of offense as the main channel is spot on. Advertising, PR, direct marketing, hand-out collateral -- it all needs to point people to the website. Once there, they need to be able to see RIGHT AWAY that rides are available and give them incentive to click through and learn more about it. You guys do a good job with it... along with posting the location you'll be at next.

With the B-25 "Barbie III" in the experiences through the Warbirds Unlimited Foundation, we've used web marketing quite effectively. We use advertising via Google AdWords targeted to specific search terms (keywords) and geographic areas, and surprisingly the return on investment has been fairly high considering the price is fairly low overall. The challenge is testing the right keywords and continually improving it -- expect to spend 2-3 hours spread out over a week for the first month or two in working with it, learning it, and improving the campaign.

We also, ironically, have had great success with Facebook advertising and social media promotion... that's a constantly changing beast that you'll just have to figure out on your own... I know I am!

Warbirds Unlimited and the B-25 "Barbie III" doesn't tour as a rule and stays in one location for extended periods. This way we control the maintenance, control the fuel costs, and can build up more word of mouth that way. In the past we'd spend the Fall, Winter, and Spring in the Phoenix area and the summer in Denver when it was too hot in AZ. This worked as the "snowbird" market gave us a lot of business while the economy was good. In the past year, rides have dwindled sharply -- due for the most part to the bad real estate market in this area (second worst to Las Vegas) and fewer people spending holiday out here to save cash. The B-25 will be moving to Denver this coming week and will be there through mid-August at this point. There ARE changes with the B-25 -- but you can read about that in another topic I'll be posting here later today.

[snj5]

Basic question...

It's my understanding that 'rides' cannot be 'sold' in experimental aircraft, so these aircraft must have std certs, commercial pilots, 2nd class medicals, etc... Does donation for costs cover this? I was also told that the FAA is pretty strict on this.
I would be interested to hear anyone's experiences with this issue.
Thanks.

[bdk]

Thanks for the suggestion. I rode in their P-40 and also the SBD, but could not talk them into a ride in their F4U. Best they could do, and they were quite helpful with this, was to fly formation with the Corsair so I could get some air to air photos.

PM sent.

[retroaviation]

Basic question...

It's my understanding that 'rides' cannot be 'sold' in experimental aircraft, so these aircraft must have std certs, commercial pilots, 2nd class medicals, etc... Does donation for costs cover this? I was also told that the FAA is pretty strict on this.
I would be interested to hear anyone's experiences with this issue.
Thanks.

Yes...sort of. I know the CAF has an exemption letter (called the 6802 Exemption) for over 20 of their aircraft that are experimental, to sell rides on their ride program. The B-24A is a good example of that.

Gary

[Ryan Keough]

Basic question...

It's my understanding that 'rides' cannot be 'sold' in experimental aircraft, so these aircraft must have std certs, commercial pilots, 2nd class medicals, etc... Does donation for costs cover this? I was also told that the FAA is pretty strict on this.
I would be interested to hear anyone's experiences with this issue.
Thanks.

In the case of the B-17 and B-25 (limited category) and the B-24 (experimental), the FAA grants a Letter of Exemption for appropriately qualified 501c3 non-profit groups to allow local flight experiences for fundraising. The exemption letter contains extremely detailed information on the flight operations, maintenance standards, and pilot training to conduct these flights. As it is classified as a "for hire" flight, the pilots must be possess a commercial license in the category of aircraft. Pilots-in-command are required to have a type rating if the aircraft requires it (almost all do).

There is also the requirement for a Letter of Authorization (LOA) and the institution of a random drug testing program. Each organization works with their FSDO on these standards. Speaking of FSDOs, these exemption-authorized groups have designated inspectors for the operations and maintenance side of the house.

So in other words, it's tightly regulated... and not necessarily easy to apply and be granted an exemption. Exemptions do have time limits and are renewed on a regular schedule (I believe every two years).

You can view search for and view specific exemption letters for the organizations (see "petitioner") at http://aes.faa.gov. The search platform here is kind of odd, so it might take you a little bit to figure it out... type in who you are searching for in "petitioner" and click the "search" button on the left bar. Then when the list of exemptions comes up, click into the line of the item you want to see and press "View Document" on the left bar again.

Keep in mind that all filings for exemptions are listed here... so if the group filed for and was denied an exemption on a type, then amended or changed their filing and re-filed, if it was granted, it will be listed under another docket number than the one that was denied.

[Canso42]

SNJ5, the 'experimental' reg. is the hangup. Play word games with the Fed go. Lone Star recently sold an NX registered harvard and got an SNJ with a plain old N-number.
As for rides, Lone Star seems to be doing well. I'm not qualified to go into detail on the program in general but the last two times Ive been down on a Saturday, the B-17 was busy with rides and the B-25 time before last. Also last weekend, one flight had an empty seat and I got to fly and as we turned back to the airport over where Bolivar used to be, it was low tide. I spotted a historic site just offshore there, the wreck of a Confederate blockade runner the C.S.S. Denbigh.
Lots of scenic and historic stuff to see down here. Come fly with LSFM!

Doug Ratchford,
Canso42

[RickH]

No hijacking intended but it's amazing what you can learn on a site like this. Small pieces of info dropped here and there can lead to new discoverys.
Canso said;

I spotted a historic site just offshore there, the wreck of a Confederate blockade runner the C.S.S. Denbigh.

I've studied the wrecks around the bay and some of their history and knew about the Acadia, known for years as simply " The Boilers" just west of San Luis Pass. There are other Civil War wrecks around Bolivar Roads but I had never heard of the C.S.S. Denbigh. The most famous is USS Hatteras sunk by the Raider Alabama and her famous Captain, Raphael Semmes.

Turns out she was one of the South's most succesful blockade runners of the war.

Denbigh: length 182'7", beam 22'6", draft 7', crew 20, speed 10.5 to 13.7 knots. Denbigh was a civilian-owned iron-hulled blockade runner that made runs so regularly to Mobile and Galveston from Havana that she became known as "the Packet." She made seven successful runs to Mobile and six to Galveston; approaching Galveston a seventh time on the night of May 23-24, 1865, Denbigh ran hard aground on Bird Key, a sand shoal just off the Bolivar Peninsula shore, to the north and east of Galveston, whereupon she was destroyed by shellfire from Union blockaders.

Thanks, Doug, I learned something new today !

[Canso42]

You're welcome, Rick. Check out this link for more. http://nautarch.tamu.edu/PROJECTS/denbigh/

My interest in the ship is more personal; my stepson's first name is Denbigh and they have the same namesake family in Virginia.

This is probably a first for a rabbit chase here but a warship wreck and warbirds are both in the preservation of history.
I saw it from the B-17! (back to airplanes)

Doug

[Tailspin]

Wings over the Rockies Museum just sponsored Aluminum Overcast with 218 sold rides and 400 attended our Hangar Dance with '40-'50s music. Some people still care and are interested.
Hugh

[gary1954]

Wings over the Rockies Museum just sponsored Aluminum Overcast with 218 sold rides and 400 attended our Hangar Dance with '40-'50s music. Some people still care and are interested.
Hugh

That is cool, and have a warbird as a backdrop, naw skip that!
The cost of the "Rides" kills my wallet, so I wouldn't be going on one, can't afford it. I ran into a lot of folks at our airshow back in March, and they said it was way out of their price range. I figure, and I know there will be a lot of flak (**pulls on flak vest - steel pot, and pulls up some armor plating**)
If you have rides at 350-450, not many takers.
100-150 is more affordable, and would possibly fill up the seats faster than the 350-450. I realize the "cost of operation" commands the steeper price guys, I'm just telling you what I hear on the ramp.
I only know that I say a "God thank you" every time I see a Warbird on the ramp, because somebody has the capital to preserve, maintain, and fly this airplane to us. If I had the bucks, trust me, I'd have one too.

[RickH]

Gary, the people making those comments are out of touch.

No way a bomber could fly at 100-150.00 per seat. Most bombers only have 10 seats. With the cost of fuel and insurance, not to mention engine overhauls, tires, brakes, etc.... A bomber trying to survive on that wouldn't live for 1 month unless there was some serious subsidy.

While the flight experience for the individual is important the reason for the flights are for the aircraft to raise money for its continued survival.

[gary1954]

Gary, the people making those comments are out of touch.

No way a bomber could fly at 100-150.00 per seat. Most bombers only have 10 seats. With the cost of fuel and insurance, not to mention engine overhauls, tires, brakes, etc.... A bomber trying to survive on that wouldn't live for 1 month unless there was some serious subsidy.

While the flight experience for the individual is important the reason for the flights are for the aircraft to raise money for its continued survival.

The Choir hears ya! as has been posted in here before, "most" of the people going to an airshow don't know the different between a B-25 and a B-52, only knowing that it is big and has a 5 and a 2 or a 2 and a 5. America is rapidly loosing touch with our past, living for the moment, and wanting what they want now. kinda sad, yup kinda sad