Swamp Ghost

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:03 am

the politics & graft of a 3rd world country abound!!

aseanaero · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:09 am

The PNG Govt has known about this since the 1960's and buyers would have every right to think that if they were dealing with a national cultural authority and there was a precedent for getting export permits that it was legal.

Here's a list of aircraft that they've identified in the report as being 'Illegally removed State Property' ... I doubt if anything will ever come of it once the whole thing blows over

Quote:

LIST OF AIRCRAFT SALVAGED.

1960’s. Total – 5.
♣ A6M2 Zero 51553 (salvaged 1967, later sold to USAF
Museum. Restored to static display 2004).
86
♣ P-47 “Sweetwater Swatter” 42-8066 (salvaged 1969, sold to
MOTAT 1970, sold to Robert Greinert 1991).
♣ Ki-61 Tony 379 (salvaged 1960s, sold by PNG Museum in
1980s to USA, Weeks Museum)
♣ Ki-43 Oscar (salvaged 1960s, moved to PNG Museum,
exported in 2001. Exact whereabouts unknown.)
♣ A6M2 Zero 3471 (salvaged 1968 to Canada. Used in
restorations. Remainder resold and in storage)

1970s – TOTAL: 25
♣ A6M5 4323 (salvaged 1971, sold to San Diego Aerospace
Museum. Destroyed in arson fire)
♣ A6M2 two seat Zero (salvaged 1972. Sold to Tokyo Science
Museum)
♣ D3A2 –Val 3105 (salvaged 1973. Displayed unrestored at
Nimitz Museum)
♣ A6M2 Zero 5784 (salvaged 1973. Restored by the RAAF to
static display at Australian War Memorial)
♣ P-4ON 42-104961 (salvaged 1973. In storage in USA ever
since)
87
♣ P-39N 42-18811, 42-11408 (salvaged 1973. Whereabouts
unknown)
♣ P-39K 42-4351 (parts only) (salvaged 1973.Whereabouts
unknown)
♣ P-39Q 42-18403 (salvaged 1973. .Whereabouts unknown)
♣ Spitfire Mark Vc A58-146 (salvaged 1974. Restored to static
condition and displayed)
♣ PP-40E 41-36166 (salvaged 1974 to PNG Museum, removed
by Robert Geinert in 2001)
♣ A-20 43-21627 (salvaged 1975, stored in Chino. Presently
being restored at PIMA Museum
♣ P-39Q 42-19993 (salvaged 1975. Restored to static and
displayed in museum. Restored to fly 2004)
♣ P-39Q 42-19995 (salvaged 1975. Whereabouts unknown)
♣ P-39N 42-19027 (salvaged 1975. Restored to static display at
Planes of Fame)
♣ P-40N A29-448 (salvaged 1975. Restored to flying condition
in New Zealand, 2000)
88
♣ P40N 42-105915 (salvaged 1975. Restored to flying condition
in Australia, 2002)
♣ P-40N A29-405 (salvaged 1975. Owned by several owners,
currently in NZ)
♣ P-40N 42-105951 (salvaged 1975.Wings in New Zealand,
fuselage in USA all in storage)
♣ Beaufort A9-13 (salvaged 1975. Sold to Australian Army
Flying Museum and displayed unrestored)
♣ Beaufort A9-557 (salvaged 1975 to USA. Resold to Australian
War Memorial. Restored to static display 2003)
♣ Beaufort A9-559 (salvaged 1975. Resold and used in UK
Beaufort restoration)
♣ Beaufort A9-226 (salvaged 1974.Presently with Beaufort
Restoration Group)
♣ P-39N 42-8740 (salvaged 1975. Restored by several groups,
restored to static display at Yanks Museum)
♣ P-39Q 42-19991 (salvaged 1975. Whereabouts unknown)
♣ P-39Q 42-20339 (salvaged 1975. Whereabouts unknown)
♣ P-40N A29-556 (salvaged 1975. In storage in Chino, CA ever
since)
89
♣ Boomerang A46-174 (salvaged 1975.Sold to Weeks Museum)
♣ Spitfire Mark Vc A58-149 (salvaged 1977?)
♣ Spitfire Mark Vc A58-178 (salvaged 1977)
♣ Spitfire mark Vc A58-213 (salvaged 1977)
♣ P-38 42-1264 (salvaged 1978 to PNG Museum. Half remains
removed by Robert Greinert 2001)

1980s – TOTAL: 14
♣ P-39K 42-4312 (salvaged 1982 to Australia. Under
restoration)
♣ Ki-61 Tony 640 (salvaged 1984 to PNG Museum. Removed
by Robert Greinert 2004)
♣ A-20G “Hell ‘N Pelican” 42-86786 (salvaged 1984. Restored to
static display by RAAF. In storage)
♣ DB-7 “J is for Jessica” A28-8 (salvaged 1984.Restored to
static display for RAAF Museum)
♣ A-20G 42-86615 (salvaged 1985.In RAAF storage)
♣ A-20G 43-9401 (salvaged 1985. In RAAF storage)
90
♣ A-20G 43-9491 (salvaged 1985. In RAAF storage)
♣ A-20G 9629 (salvaged in 1985. In RAAF storage)
♣ A-20G “Lady Constance” 43-9628 (salvaged 1985. In RAAF
storage)
♣ A-20G “Big Nig” 43-9436 (salvaged 1985. In RAAF storage.
Transferred to Precision Aerospace)
♣ Ki-61 Tony 299 (salvaged 1984 to PNG Museum. Removed by
Robert Greinert 2002)
♣ K1-43 Oscar 5465 (salvaged 1984 to AWM Museum. Static
display and in storage)
♣ Ki-61 Tony 640 (salvaged 1984 to PNG Museum. Under
restoration at Precision Aerospace)
♣ P-400 Ap 335 (salvaged 1984 to USA. Whereabouts
unknown)

1990s – TOTAL: 10
♣ P-40E A29-7 (salvaged 1990. Whereabouts unknown)
♣ P-40N “Suzy” 42-105820 (salvaged 1991. Whereabouts
unknown)
♣ P-40E (salvaged 1991.Whereabouts unknown)
91
♣ P-38H 42-66841 (1992 to Australia Classic Jets.Under static
restoration)
♣ B-24D “Flying Wolf” 42-41091 (1990s wings only to Werribee
B-24 Restoration. Static restoration)
♣ P-40N “The Carolina Belle” 42-104947 (1997 to Classic Jets,
today Precision Aerospace restoration)
♣ Ki-61 292 (1999 to Classic Jets. Static display)
♣ P-47D 42-27608 (1999 Robert Greinert to Australia. Under
restoration)
♣ P-40K A29-183 (1999 transferred from Robert Greinert to
Graham Orphan in New Zealand)
♣ P-40K Unidentified (1999 Robert Greinert sold to PIMA
Museum

2000s – TOTAL: 18 AS OF 2006
♣ P-40K “Swing It” 42-45981 (Removed 2000 by Greinert sold
to PIMA Museum)
♣ P-38H “Japanese Sandman II” 42-66905 –(2000 tail & booms
only removed by Greinert, to Precision Aerospace)
92
♣ P-39D 41-38351 (2000 tail section taken from PNG Museum
by Greinert to Australia. In storage)
♣ Beaufort A9-622 (2000 tail section by Greinert for AWM
restoration)
♣ P-39F 41-7191 (2000 tail recovered by Greinert, taken by 75
Squadron to Australia)
♣ P-40N “Come In Suckers” A29-414 (salvaged 2001 by
Greinert. Sold to New Zealand)
♣ P-47D 42-8130 (2001 removed from PNG Museum by
Greinert and donated to PIMA Museum)
♣ F54 Lightning 42-13084 (2001 removed from PNG Museum
by Greinert)
♣ P-47D “Fiery Ginger IV” 42-22668 (2003 tail & weapon
removed by Greinert donated to USAF)
♣ P-38H 42-66538 (2002 tail & booms salvaged, location
unknown)
♣ Hudson A16-36 (2002 tail fin recovered by Greinert for AWM)
♣ P-38G “Dumbo!” 42-12847 (2002 salvaged by Greinert to
Australia, Precision Aerospace)
93
♣ P-38H 42-66534 (2003 salvaged by Jarret. Now with Classic
Jets)
♣ P-40E A29-43 (2003 pieces salvaged by Greinert for use as
an template)
♣ P-40E “The Spoddessape” 41-25178 (2003 salvaged by
Greinert/Cockayne to Australia)
♣ P-40N 42-104986 (2004 salvaged by Greinert/Griffith to
Precision Aerospace)
♣ P-47D 42-2268 (2004 salvaged by Greinert/Hagen to
Australia – now claimed as the property of Hagen.)
♣ P-40N “Punkins” 42-104977 (2005 salvaged by Greinert,
resold to Warbird Adventures)
Of the above, only three have been restored.
Salvaged Aircraft Restored to Flying Condition
♣ P-390 42-19993 (salvaged 1975 restored to static and
displayed in Museum, restored to fly 2004)
♣ P-40N A29-448 (salvaged 1975, restored to flying condition in
New Zealand 2000
♣ P-40N 42-105915 (salvaged 1975, restored to flying condition
in Australia, 2002)

The 'best part' of the report is that they are entitled to 50% of the RESTORED value of the aircraft.

Quote:

The price of sale of an artifact should be at least
50% of the value of the item after restoration;
56
No attempt was made to ascertain the restored value. The
Committee notes that its own inquiries suggested a current
value between USD 3 – 5 million

page 56 of the report

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:40 am

it's not surprising that some high profile legitimate collectors, museums, & historical organizations are caught up in this spider web. some have honest intentions, others not. it's tough dealing with 3rd world shysters in back water countries. the up shot of the point is nobody knows who their dealing with. i'm sure plenty A- LIST groups got their prizes through circumstances that they later regretted.

aseanaero · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:40 am

PNG still has an estimated 800 wrecks sitting in the jungle that nobody seems to give a rat's #ss about.

Let the Swamp Ghost go boys , stop embarassing yourselves.

Holedigger · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:42 am

Send them a counter "BILL" say $100 per acre "recovered" from Japanese occupation, $1,000,000 per US casualty inflicted, to be paid to surviving family members(with interest!)

aseanaero · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:49 am

Quote:

the up shot of the point is nobody knows who their dealing with

Hi Tom,

You're right but also the problem is the process isn't clear or printed out anywhere THAT CAN EASILY BE FOUND

For example , if you want to purchase aircraft from the air force here

1. You get approval from the Chief of Air Staff (4 star general equivalent)

2. You get approval from the Chief of Combined Services (5 star)

3. You then wait for approval from the Dept of Defence and possibly the Ministry of Finance.

Time to process - at least ONE YEAR (don't ask me how I know)

The above assumes there is no US State Dept involvement or other foreign country approval required. If yes it could be 2 years or a flat 'no' if it's a combat aircraft or Foreign Military Sales.

I haven't looked at any WW2 wreck salvage here in Indo but it would be the same sort of process PLUS dealing with another couple of government depts and local governments and I would guess 3 to 5 yrs to get everything approved. THEN you would still have problems with non govt locals trying to make problems for you and assuming it didn't get into a hysterical session in the press which would probably mean all bets are off anyway.

Most people would be fooled with a letter from the Chief of Air Staff and its happened in the past , people have handed over money and the aircraft are still here 15 yrs later as the aircraft weren't allowed to leave the base.

It's not the Air Force who are at fault but local middle men that use copies of these letters to take deposits or full payments using incomplete paperwork as 'evidence' that the deal is ok , if you don't know the process you would fall for it. Heck , in the old days these guys will even hand over the logbooks and data plates (which has happened) but you can't move the aircraft.

I would guess that a similar process is in place in most Asian countries , so the Swamp Ghost saga is basically a transaction where an initial approval was given (similar to step 1)

ZRX61 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am **Posts:** 2308

aseanaero wrote:

PNG is without doubt the most dangerous country and primitive country I've set foot in ! Makes Indonesia look like Switzerland in comparison.

I guess you've never been to Oakland...

aseanaero · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:12 am

Cook County Chicago was a close second , I was going to the EMD plant from the Chicago Hilton in the mid 90's and took a wrong turn , a white guy in an open Chrysler convertible driving through the badlands of Chicago trying to look 'unafraid' :shock:

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:13 am

sounds like the scenario i predicted :roll:

aseanaero · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:53 am

Quote:

Send them a counter "BILL" say $100 per acre "recovered" from Japanese occupation, $1,000,000 per US casualty inflicted, to be paid to surviving family members(with interest!)

Yes , memories are short.

The original PNG 1953 War Surplus Bill had more to do with the value of scrap than it did with historical preservation and the mass scrapping of war surplus from the 50's to probably mid 70's proves it.

I think the underlying issue is that the locals feel that if some foreigner wants it , it must be worth a lot more than they got paid for it or the ones that are screaming are the ones that didn't get paid.

If you can put a $1 million down for costs and just shrug your shoulders if it doesn't come off you should be ok.

WW2 warbird recovery has just moved up a few notches to the level of the extremely wealthy not comfortably wealthy.

Holedigger · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:12 am

A big part of the problem is that being a 3rd world country, the Government is disorganized and corrupt at many levels, the people are poor and out for anything they can get. Really don't blame them there. My old boss was from Indonesia. The war cost him his father (died in a prison camp) family home and property when the Dutch were kicked out after the war. Memories are indeed short. He was rather biter about the whole thing after going back to fight the Japanese, then having to fight again for what he considered to be his home. Complicated issues indeed!

aseanaero · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:24 am

Quote:

Dutch were kicked out after the war

In 10 years here I have only met one real Dutch who stayed here after independence in 1946/47. He became an Indonesian citizen and died last year at age 94.

Unlike other previous colonies or settlements (e.g. South Africa) you don't see former Dutch colonial descendants here so it must have been really violent.

The current president has been active on combating corruption (really) and a lot of high profile people are still in jail but the culture of rent seeking and extortion are endemic at even the lowest levels of society and will take generations to bring to a 'normal' level.

Unfortunately in most of these countries , foreigners and in particular Americans are seen as 'fair game' and you won't get much sympathy from the local courts.

Holedigger · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:35 am

To add insult to injury, he was (IIRC) 1/8 native, and as such, shunned in Holland as being an islander ( I don't recall the quite derogatory name actually given) so he came to the States, married, started a business and didn't look back. He spoke good English, Malay and a bit of French. P-40 pilot for the Dutch AF (left one in the jungles of Java)

Warbird Information Exchange

Swamp Ghost

Who is online