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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 11:42 am 
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Kermit's a few years ago at Lakeland.

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Dwight Brooks' formerly airworthy Lyslander at the NASM.

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Not airworthy but this one I took in India about three years ago. Note the tail wheel.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:10 am 
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Thanks for the pics, Brad!
barnbstormer wrote:
Where is, and what is the status of the one the The Bianchi's, of Personal Plane Services, U.K. restored to flying condition for Philip Mann? At the time, I believe that was the first one to be restored to flying status in the modern era, circa mid 1970s. I know that all the paperwork was lost in Neil Williams' tragic CASA 111 crash and after that, Mann said it would need the equivalent of an annual inspection for EACH flight then on, (barring another full restoration with new paperwork records) so that was his reason for selling it on to a major UK collection who could sign it off for flights. The name escapes me at the moment. I remember some little details such as Dunlop having the mold to get the restoration a proper set of tires for it. We had also shipped it to UK with a spare Mercury IX, (possibly firewall forward) for the Lysander,if my memory is correct.

That aircraft, CanCar 1244, ex-G-BCWL, is the example with Kermit now. I wasn't aware of the paperwork story. The real issue with most Lysander restorations was most people didn't manage to get the Bristol Mercury engine to run properly. (Incidentally, the Mk.II Lysander had the sleeve-valve Bristol Perseus engine. Technically that mark is extinct (hang a Perseus on then airframe you'd make a 'Mk.II' of course - but first catch your Perseus...).)

Oh, and just checking, Kermit's example was never registered with the FAA - so it certainly can't fly legally. Which is a pity - it was, and should be a flyer. It'll need some amount of restoration now, though.

However in the case of G-BCWL they fitted at the least a Bristol Bollingbroke exhaust, cowl and heater set up, rather than the correct Lysander Mercury. I suspect the whole engine was ex- Bolly.
Mike wrote:
JDK wrote:
Holedigger wrote:
On further reading on Kermit's Lysander, it was rebuilt (apparently only to static condition) and is in the lineup to be rebuilt to flying status (which certainly will be a while!) With his small staff and big collection......looks like she will be static for a while yet! :shock:
Errr? It was airworthy in the UK, and when sold to him...

Kermit had a second Lysander, a project, which is the one now with ARCo at Duxford.

So to clarify, Kermit currently owns CanCar 1244 and did once own V9312, Westland C/No Y1363, rsgistering it as N3093K, although it was never comple/airworthy in Kermit's hands. The pitfalls of not using any ids and owner's or aircraft names.
Firebird wrote:
Must have a search through some old photos for the Flying Legends at Dx back in the mid-90's sometime when all three flyers at that time, flew together - what a terriffic sight that was.

Indeed. I'll try and dig out an electronic copy. IIRC, it was five Mercuries two Lysanders, the Blenheim and the Shuttleworth's Glad.
Firebird wrote:
IIRC, wasn't the Lizzie designed by Teddy Petter who went on to join English Electric and design the Canberra and start the design of what became the Lightning.

Teddy Petter was from the owner's family (boss' son syndrome) how much he designed, although he's often credited with the design, is open to debate. Certainly when Teddy was appointed as Technical Director, Robert Arthur Bruce, the MD and Geoffrey Hill, Designer resigned, the works manager also being changed. Arthur Davenport was Westland's chief designer at the time, and he, Petter and Test Pilot Harald Penrose worked as a team to research the design with the Army co-op pilots - but in Westland's archives, Davenport is credited as 'designer'. How much input was Petters isn't clear - it might have been a lot.
John Dupre wrote:
I remember reading that one of the UK flyers had some sort of problems with the Briston Mercury engine that took nearly a year to sort out. Any one have any idea what that was? Could that be why the one restored in CA in the 70's that is now at the USAFM had such a short flying career?

As above; IMHO, no-one really got to grips with operating a Mercury engine except Shuttleworth on the Gladiator and the Aircraft Restoration Company. I'm no engineer, but my impression was the engine needs to be managed differently to more familiar big radials and won't behave unless that's done. Operated properly, it works fine.

Dwight Brooks' example, Can Car 1185 N7791, now in the Smithsonian, flew fine - I'm not aware as to why he gave it up, but not as far as I know because of the engine.

Just a final remark. The Lysander was an aircraft built up of exchangeable parts - lots of them, rather than a stressed skin monocoque construction. Therefore a good deal of part exchange, particularly in rebuilds is not only easy, but often sensible - so most survivors contain significant parts from other airframes - I've used the identities above to specify a particular aircraft's history - not to say it's 100% that machine - because most aren't.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:27 am 
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The one at the NASM was once display at the NMUSAF.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:48 pm 
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JDK wrote:
As above; IMHO, no-one really got to grips with operating a Mercury engine except Shuttleworth on the Gladiator and the Aircraft Restoration Company. I'm no engineer, but my impression was the engine needs to be managed differently to more familiar big radials and won't behave unless that's done. Operated properly, it works fine.

It does help if 1) the throttles aren't opened too quickly, and 2) enough fuel is in the tanks for the duration of the flight (including the landing bit at the end) :roll:

As far as the Duxford formation goes, there was once a 5-aircraft / 6 Mercury formation (3 Lysanders, Blenheim and Gladiator) at Flying Legends. Of these, only the Shuttleworth pair are still airworthy. :(


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:52 pm 
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JDK wrote:
However in the case of G-BCWL they fitted at the least a Bristol Bollingbroke exhaust, cowl and heater set up, rather than the correct Lysander Mercury. I suspect the whole engine was ex- Bolly.

I’ll have to look at my records/photos (almost 40 years ago now!) but I don’t know why they would have switched, when this is what we shipped? But there WERE a couple of Bollingbrokes laying about…right next to the Lysanders…
I remember spending a LONG day driving the load down to the docks and half the night waiting for everything to be carefully loaded on the ship, in 1969 or 70, I think..

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 3:09 pm 
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However in the case of G-BCWL they fitted at the least a Bristol Bollingbroke exhaust, cowl and heater set up, rather than the correct Lysander Mercury. I suspect the whole engine was ex- Bolly


Biggest difference is single vs dual stack(s) right ? Lizzy being single.

How different is the rest ? Core vs accessories.

Great thread :)


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Keep in mind you are all forgetting one flyer and that is the airplane now on display at Canada's Aviation Museum. It was the first of the Lysanders to fly during "modern" times. Here are the confirmed flyers with approximate dates of the first flights:

CAM's 1967
Brooks's early 1970s (now static at Hazy)
Mann's early 1970s (now static with Weeks)
Sir Willie Robert's late 70s (only Current flyer)
Sabena 1980s (under restoration)

The big question mark is if the Whereatt/Potter Lysander ever flew. I tend to believe no, but can't say for certain.

That all being said, it is nice to know that in the next few years three additional Lizzies will take to the air.

Jim


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 3:56 pm 
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I alse remember seeing an airframe being worked on by Vince O'Connors.

All ( well most ) parts seemed to be there. Where ever happened to tha one.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:27 pm 
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Vince is still working on his.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:59 pm 
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How far along is it now ?

Tks m


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:10 pm 
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Last I asked him, it was progressing.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:37 am 
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According to their website The CAvM's example is a composite made from parts of three Lysanders. It was restored as a Centennial project by the RCAF and it first flew in 1967 after restoration. The aircraft was presented to the Museum in 1968 and last flew in 1970.

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:01 pm 
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Here is the placard on Kermit's Lysander, shot at Sun-N-Fun Museum, Lakeland FL, Oct 2008.

Built by the National Steel Car Co. in Canada, the aeroplane was struck off military charge on April 25, 1946. Purchased by a Canadian farmer for $100, it was acquired by Wes Agnew in 1971. Sold again to Philip Mann and refurbished by Personal Plane Services in the United Kingdom, the Lysander returned to airworthy status in March 1977. Purchased by the late Doug Arnold in 1979, the aircraft made a forced landing on August 21, 1983, and was substantially damaged. Repaired again by Personal Plane Service in November 1987, it was operated until grounded with engine problems from 1989 to 1993. The engine was rebuilt under the guidance of the Aircraft Restoration Company at Duxford during the winter of 1995/1996.
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:14 pm 
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Still seems like earlier than 1971 to my memory. I just went to check the letters and could not find them. Only found 25 of the original old photos that Wes Agnew had sent to us, to pick what we wanted to buy. We (Raceway) bought the Lysander from Agnew and we resold it to Phillip Mann who was a good customer of ours. (we also sold him the Rearwin Cloudster ex-Pan Am inst trainer, and a Rearwin Sportster90. Also sold him a flying TravelAir 12Q/W *which meant it had been converted from the Gipsy engine "Q" to the Warner Engine "W" type. Remember selling him some rare Armstrong Siddely Genet engine parts for his Civilian Coupe, too. We picked up the Lysander in Feb, which is NOT a good time to move aircraft in Canada! Could only work 15 minutes at a time before having to come in to warm up again. I think some of the early dates are off, including how early Wes owned the planes (I have photos of the Blenheims too)

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Just reporting the "Official" Fantasy of Flight placard. I have NO firsthand information, just the placard.


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