Warbird Information Exchange

Thank you for sharing those Tom.

Zack

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Volunteer Coordinator/Curator - Military Aviation Museum - Virginia Beach, VA
"America's Flying Museum"
http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org

In my other life, (the non-warbird one), I see collections broken up all of the time. A lot of them are historically significant all by themselves. I have books written about broken up and auctioned collections. These were sold by folks who had other, more significant priorities in life. With some it's eating, others, getting the ole cancer treatment, and others, beer and smoke money.

I agree. These items, this close to the events they either represent, or they came into being in, being broken up loses most of the context of the collection. But, buuuutttttt........

I'm not that big of a fan of museums, of any kind. Don't get me wrong, museums are better than the dump. And, they can sometimes preserve some non-picasso-lindbergh airplane kinda thing. If it aint a picasso-lindbergh airplane kinda thing it's a cr@p shoot. Chances are, a donation of that stuff to any museum, would end up with it rotting away, literally rotting away, in a dank moldy back room in it. Museums rarely pay for anything, and when they do, it is front and center baby. Freebie donations....ehhhhhhh, we'll see...who's the artist?, who did it belong too? We'll see. Thats on the big museums, the little ones,,,hmmmmm, welllll, bob usually runs it, but he's out this month, and the one room at the old train station is leaking all over the picture display, we just don't have no where to put it now,,,....hmmmmm

In my art, book, and airplane travels, I've found that private collectors preserve art and history better than any museum ever could. And when they die, some other collector does it next. And before you tell me that it vanishes from the earth and no one can see it, the same is true for museums. If you aren't a PHD or somebodys super good bud, you ain't seeing any of the backroom stuff, ever, ever, ever. Those brainiac PHD librarian, art, gubmint, military, types, never, ever, ever, let it go, for even a second. If for no other reason than you might find something they haven't.

I also think it is important to preserve these things, in context, for the future. One thing to do is photograph/scan all of them before they are broken up. It could be part of the "Voices" program. In the case of the ebay dudes, offer them 50 bucks for a complete set of pictures of all of the items and the rights to use them.

H3ll, Sothebys, Christies, Bonhams does that with every big collection they liquidate. I can track single books and single pieces of art and antiquities through the last 3-400 years through sales and auction catalogs alone. This maintains some of the context of the original collection, and it provides actual descriptive proof of what an object is, or is not. With this 20c WW2 stuff, that will be a big deal in 100 years. It might be the only record of what it was in the beginning.

Don't spend too much time lamenting the breakup of a collection. That breakup is probably the only thing that will save any of the elements of it.

_________________
DEEP THOUGHTS BY KIDS:
"If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be until the looting started. Age 15 "


Deep Thoughts,
Jack Handy

Tom,
Very cool!
Send me a email and I'll send you high res files of the 2 I posted!

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Don't touch my junk!!

This may be repeating others comments above, but ...

I agree with Tom (great photos!) that it's much better if a WIXer or equivalent goes ahead and buys the stuff or the part of it that he can afford rather than it end up in the trash. If the collection is split up - but survives! - so be it. If a serious collector gets all or part of the collection, there's an excellent chance the items will be lovingly cared for - and shared with historians, warbird owners, and others (and artists!) in our little corner of the universe that attempts to accurately preserve the wartime memories of those who can no longer speak for themselves.

As a former museum person before I turned to painting full time, believe me, no matter what daddy or grandaddy did, there ARE family members who end up with the stuff who would just as soon toss the s**t (their view of such items) in the bin rather than take the time to list it on eBay, for example. If the items that are the subject of this thread are listed by a family member or close relative, kudos to them for taking the time to try and find a home for this man's memories.

Some family members have absolutely no interest in "preserving history", *BUT* they know there are those who do, and just maybe there's a bit of historical value to Uncle Joe's stuff, and/or it's a chance to make a buck (whatever - let's just try and get the history into appreciative hands!), so a willing buyer and willing seller coming together in such circumstances is a good thing in my opinion.

Wade

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Absolutely untrue of almost any reputable national collection.
Again, excepting people like the the top level private collctiors, (Getty, Thiessen) most private collectors spend more on the stuff than its preservation and protection. National level collections are mandated to provide proper preservation storage and protection (from theft etc.) Yes, you can find examples of national museum failures, but on the other hand it's difficult to manage the count of private collector failures though. Local museums? Some very good, some as Orvis says, mouldy.

Boy you've had some bad experience! Personally, I've never had a problem accessing ANY material in a museum that's been catalogued (Again a common failure in private collecting) and rarely in elaborating on their knowledge. On my visit to the NMUSNA they couldn't have been more helpful with my research.

DISCLOSURE: Married to a 'braniac MSt (Oxon)... type'.

I agree (as usual!) with the rest of Orvis' post, but sorry, the anti-'gubmnt' paranoia is just silly.

No museum's prefect, but by and large, the national collections do a great job. I'd be interested in the private collector version of the Smithsonian.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Um ... a blanket statement that is inaccurate across the board, bordering on blatantly ignorant.

If you're talking about collectible fine art, e.g., paintings, for example, that are market-valued at more than, let's say, $1,000 USD, then in my experience those collectors will go out of their way to ensure the proper display, protection, and conservation if need be of their collection. These practices are put into place from the "Gettys", et al, all the way down to the collectors who have only one or two pieces in their collections - with many, many folks in between you've never heard of. They will not hesitate to seek local professional art advice on a range of matters regarding their prized art. I'm not talking just 'aviation art' here - western art collectors, maritime, and other genre collectors are very 'in tune' to the needs of their investments.

On the other hand - also in my experience - only the most highly-rated museums, usually those focused on ART collections, will properly 'address' their art. I've almost retched at the display condition(s) of 'name' art at some museums. As a professional artist with collectors all over, overall I'd MUCH rather have my art in the loving hands of a private collector.

Wade

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I'm going to chime in in favor of the private collectors (not to the exclusion of national museums, though). I have an uncle that's very active in old firearms collecting, and most of the guys I've met associated with him are quite good about preserving, displaying, and recording the history related to the old guns. A lot of them have a lot of money invested, and they enjoy the opportunity to "share" them.

About this group of private collectors:
http://www.tgca.net/about_us.htm

And an example of a display they put together...
http://www.tgca.net/GoP1.htm
http://www.tgca.net/GoP2-The%20Exhibit.htm

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

My only experience with museums is the Mighty Eighth and it seems that Dr. Price does a heck of a good job preserving the artifacts and rotating them regularly in our exhibits. I guess it just depends on the museum.

Perhaps this is a bit off the original topic of this thread, but I gotta agree with O.P. on this tidbit. It is a fact that the "back room" of most, if not all, museums have waaaaaay more cool stuff in them than what's on display. And well, unless you're the Crew Chief of a old clunky bomber, or maybe part of the volunteer crew to keep the airplane going, it can be quite difficult (although not impossible) to even get a glimpse into that treasure trove in the back. I'm quite familiar with one museum in particular that, although they're always hurting for money to preserve their collection, put very expensive electronic locks on the doors that go back into their area so that certain people "won't come back here to ask us questions." Frustrating and sad, all at the same time.

Gary

Definitely! I have nearly 25 years of museum experience, doing everything from building exhibits at two in the morning to attending classes on conservation techniques. It doesn't take me very long to assess the 'soul' of a museum once I walk in.

For the record, the NMUSAF and the NMNA, in my opinion, value their art (and other) collections and follow proper display and protection procedures. I am particularly impressed with the relatively young Mighty Eighth AF Museum you work with, Bob, as I've had art exhibitions there myself and I've also attended functions there as well. Everything I've seen leads me to believe that it is a 'sleeper' museum that, with the recent B-17 addition, is well on it's way to becoming a major stop in the aviation museum world. They don't know it yet , but a part of my long range artistic plans is to have one or more of my (future) large canvases there depicting an 8th AF theme(s).

Any 'good' museum will display only a minority of their collections at best at any one given time. Rotation for inspection and conservation, not to mention trying to keep the regular visitor 'interested' are reasons to rotate the artifacts. And yes, with prior arrangement you can usually get the 'back room' tour!

Speaking of that, I gotta disagree with James on another point - if you know who the private collectors are - and that's not hard to find out if you're an aviation art enthusiast, for example, and I myself have "hooked up" interested parties with some of my collectors who are local to the enthusiast for tours - I guarantee you that 99.99% of them will be THRILLED to show you their collection. Those I know of who have more than a few pieces hang their artwork as the major focus of their home - and the art and the 'conditions' they hang in are immaculate.

Bottom line about 'private collectors' of fine art: the serious ones spend thousands of dollars on their passion of collecting, and I'll bet your next magazine run, James, that most of them know a heck of a lot more than you think about the proper care of original fine art. And, speaking of "knowledge", another point you brought up, in addition to their appreciation for what it takes to care for their collection, they might surprise you with the depth of their personal knowledge of the historical scene depicted.

Wade

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There are, you may be surprised to find (and again I'm speaking only of art collections here) that there exists private collections that EXCEED certain aspects of even 'national' museum collections. The Westervelt-Warner Museum of American Art is just down the road from me, and Jack Warner's private collection housed within is regarded by many leading art scholars as THE finest collection of American Art in THE WORLD, including the Smithsonian. I just looked it up in a collecting magazine I have, and the collection is worth (as of a few years ago) about $200 million.

His collection ranges from painted-from-life George Washington portraits to an impressive collection of Churches and Bierstadts and much more. Those of us in the 'art world' know of other similar 'gonzo' private collections concentrating in a range of art genres ...

Mr. Warner, who still conducts personal tours of his collections for visitors - I got one myself recently - is a very wealthy man who, like Mr. Allen in Washington state, has a passion (or two!) for historical collecting that he backs with personal funds. That type of passion cannot be matched by any 'gummit' agency - yes, the Smithsonian Museums as a rule do indeed set the standard for archival practices, but they're not the only ones who know how to implement 'care and feeding' programs.

On another point, as far as knowledge, I'll go with the art experts who work for the major art auction houses - THEY are the true experts and their clients the private collectors are the folks who REALLY preserve art history (and make it, by commissioning the work in the first freakin' place!), not the 'national museums'. The latter will only see a work, usually, after it's been lovingly cared for privately ...

http://www.warnermuseum.org/

Sure, I've drifted away from 'aviation' a bit, but rest assured those of us in aviation art - artists and our collectors - are doing our best to catch up with the rest of the art world ... we're running as fast as we can ... puff puff ...

Wade

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Sorry gents, very good points, but you can 'prove' any private theisis if you are selective.

My objection, to be more specific was to Orvis' point:

Sorry, but while that's perhaps true of a lot of smaller voluntary and local museums, it's rarely, if ever, true of national collections.

Wade, all good points. However, it all depends on the definition of 'private collector'; again a private collector is just someone who collects - not necessary someone who does it to a high standard. In the US alone, for every good example you've given there's literally hundreds (if not thousands) who keep the stuff, uncatalogued without a cent spent on protection in direct sunlight or in shoeboxes or in the basement.

At no point did I take a cash value baseline. That was your choice, which is why my remarks are not, thanks, 'blatantly ignorant'. Of course if you put in a baseline, that stats change.

The vast majority of W.W.II photos and non-famous memorabilia (the original subject of the topic) lie in the hands of private collectors such as our own Jack Cook, as well as local museums and national collections. There are a few extreme collectors who have huge numbers of these, but they are the exception. The local museum, with 'bob and his back room' deserve our practical support rather than condemnation; but that wasn't who I was addressing before. Only the big collections have tried to catalogue this material.


No argument about that, Wade, for your art in non-gallery collections. But again, it wasn't what I was talking about, and art belongs in galleries, either of the level of the Gettys et al or national collections.

The validity of aviation art as (shall we say) art of artistic merit and international importance is an area we don't want to go into.


Good point Ryan, again, the better private collectors do a grand job. But again, they're massively outnumbered by the poor amateurs. Sure, set a benchmark and look at above that; but if you do so, do likewise with museums. And credit to Ryan for not fixing on a 'one good other bad' view.

Again, just watch those qualifiers:

All true enough. Unfortunately, Wade, I wasn't talking about those with thousands of dollars, or 'serious', but - all of them, the guy with two chep repros in the hall is a 'collector' to him and his friends. You have to place your bets on the offered odds, and there - you'd lose. (Again, I wasnt not restricting the question to art either.)

Gary makes a good point about museums having good locks to the back room. They aren't there to keep the keenies out, but the thieves. Again most major national collections have a huge holding that isn't on public show. Why? Because it's held for the nation, and protected for that. Sure there are issues over display rotation and access; but again the holding is there for a very good reason.

Wade wrote:

Having seen the work of Christies, Bonhams and Sothebys up close, I'm shocked at your view, Wade. The canard 'those who know the cost of everything and value of nothing' is all too often deserved; they are, by definition regularly careful not to probe too far into provenance and authenticity (unlike most galleries) and quick to massage history and facts to ensure best price - that's their job. (Of course they are careful to stay legal... But legal isn't true.) They don't hold a basement of paintings that have been shown to be fake, like most national collections - and you can work out why - and where the people worked out that it was a fake worked. (And here I'm talking across ALL of their work, not just, say, 20c collectables and art, but the whole ball of wax, where provenance and authenticity get a bit trickier.

Again, if you are selective, it's easy to 'prove' anything. I said:

Wade responded:

Sure - certain aspects of (which is great as far as it goes.)

My point was that there isn't a private collection to equal the Smithsonian. That's all. ALL of it. That's why the Smithsonian, the British Museum (and it's sub Museums) national libraries, galleries and collections are a) important and b) not approached but by any but the best of a very few private collections and then in only a few aspects. Which is why c) I waded in on Orvis' vast generalisation and got, inaccurately, taken to task myself.

As I said at the start, lots of good points, but depends on your selection. FWIW, I think all of Wade's points and much of the others are certainly worth making, and good to hear - but a) not at the expense of national collections and b) weren't on the same criteria.

Regards

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Whew, James - I think we must have set some kind of record, there ... but our individual points notwithstanding, you are in general talking about ALL artifacts of ALL values in ALL places, which points of yours I totally concur with - again, as a person with a bit of museum experience, I know all about the shoeboxes in the back of the closet - believe me.

However ... you blanketed - I feel - 'private art collectors' in your poo-pooing of "private" collecting of artifacts in your response to this comment:

Quote:
In my art, book, and airplane travels, I've found that private collectors preserve art and history better than any museum ever could.

You responded, correctly in general IMO, but the inference I gained was that 'private art collecting' can be lumped into the 'shoebox' crowd:

JDK wrote:
... Again, excepting people like the the top level private collctiors, (Getty, Thiessen) most private collectors spend more on the stuff than its preservation and protection.

On that point in regards to the 'art' part of the offending quote you responded to, you are hands-down wrong - and this is not 'selectively' choosing a thesis to prove. My tirade concerned only that one thing - those private art (I didn't say photo, or patch, or logbook, or flight jacket, or ... because again I agree with your assessments there) collectors, whom you rudely backhanded (as I read it).

I put in a rough 'value' threshold early on as I started to run with my remarks simply because when it comes to fine art collecting, very little exists below that general range of value. Yep, there's a lot of junk art (I'll say it if you don't care to) in the hands of 'collectors' who have no idea what they are doing. No argument there, but ... lest the casual reader of these forums get the wrong impression, I wanted to emphasize (more than once!) that there is indeed a vast population of serious and competent private art collectors, some with absolutely stunning collections by any measure.

Those serious private collectors are the heart and soul of art - PERIOD, end of story. They commission ... they cherish ... and in this day and age they acquire access to the latest information on protection of their investments. Lastly, if things work out, they or their families donate (or sell) to the national collections, a most worthy repository for important collections. Don't get the wrong impression - I'm not talking a zero-sum game. As 'high' as I am on private collectors, I am in no way that much 'against' museums or national galleries. But, go to any national gallery - wonder where most of that 'magnificent' art started out it's display life? That's right - on a private collectors wall.

Again, in terms of the myriad artifacts covering the value scale in the shoeboxes and boxes in the garage, and the piles of 'junk' planes in the back forty under all the weeds: no arguments there ... donate those materials to a recognized, accredited museum *or* the known Jack Cooks or the CAFs of the world, because you know the stuff will be in good hands either way. But specifically in terms of fine art collecting and care (the only point of my post(s) above), I'll put a phalanx of 'expert' and dedicated private-citizen collectors up against any official institution you can name.

Wade

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i've learned over the years that you can't collect everything. with the advent of the internet, e-bust (ebay) nothing is rare anymore. i bought a russian helmet before the ussr collapsed, it was like the holy grail in those days. i paid out the ying yang for that thing. now i can find 20 of the same on e-bust!! i now collect investment grade aviation dreck. mean while..... i lost my can on that helmetski........ lesson learned!!!

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Hi All!

One more time around, I think this is important.

When I posted, I was trying to reassure Jack that just because it's going "Private" again, doesn't mean it would be destroyed through negligence, and also to give one solution to the breakup of collections of items like that, personal items from their orginal owner.

The person selling it wants money. Offer them something for a picture collection of all of the artifacts. That way the items retain their complete context as part of the personal item collection and history. Emailing the seller, posting the request in the ebay forums so that potential sellers know that they can get a couple extra bucks from pictures and scans of the items also.

A good example of that, was the very generous offer Rob Mears made a couple of years ago regarding the Joe Genne collection. He offered a CD with all of Joe Genne's pictures on it to any Wixer that wanted them. His motive was " I'm going to tranfer this collection to CD-ROM in the future and try to pass it around so this guys memories aren't lost forever.". He then distributed them to anyone who asked. Joe Genne's memories will never be lost now. The collection is intact and in context. Thanks again Rob and Joe for your generosity!

About the museum statements I made,,,,I don't think I got my view across very good the first time, a little clarity on my thinking.......

Giving something to a national, large, well funded, ect, museum or university. Weelllllll, assuming they will even take it, and then assuming they will take it with your strings attached (collection not being broken up, collection not being sold, and so on), you will be feeding it into the giant maw that guarantees that if it isn't spectacular or rare, it goes into storage never to see the light of day again. Always to be trumped by the papers and photos of General Jones-Sythe-Willoughby, glorious supreme hero of bombastidor mountain pass and savior of the counrty, display. I also guarantee that the last people to see those items in our lifetimes will be the PHD who catalogs and stores them, The PHD candidate who is looking for evidence of american atorcities in WWII for his currently pop culturally popular topic doctoral thesis, and the well credentialed Shelby Foote, Tom Brokaw wannabees. If your purpose is to try to preserve the items forever, this is as close as you're probably gonna get. That is what these museums do. That is what they are supposed to do. I understand that, and I hope the potential donor does also.

On smaller museums, besides potential condition issues mentioned in earlier posts, you still have the "strings attached" issue. You have the issue, or fact, that most of the time they are funded and worked by a small group of people, who tend to break up over the years, or a rich dude, who tends to die, or get poor over the years. These kind of museums disolve every single year. Thats just the way it is. It takes a lot of love to keep one of these going, and that can't be counted on to be there 20 years from now.

I give money and objects to museums every year. The donations are always "No Strings Attached". This usually means that the object gets sold to fund another project. I have no problems with that. If I didn't trust their judgement, I wouldn't have donated to it.

Some advice to potential donors.
If you want to get the tax break, get the items appraised by an appraiser before you donate it. The ole "Well they were selling for this on ebay" argument doesn't cut it with the IRS. One pitch that can be made to encourage a donation by the holders of these items is, Appraisal values, especially if you were to consider a retail value, is generally going to be much larger than the ebay reality. If they can wait until tax time, the price realized will probably be larger than an auction. And NO, I'm not encouraging people to cheat on their taxes.

If you want the "Strings Attached", and they'll take it, stay in touch with the museum. If the musuem gets disolved, you get your stuff back. At least once a year I hear about some controversy about a disolved museum and stuff sold or lost that was supposed to be returned, but wasn't because they couldn't find the owner, or there was very poor record keeping. Don't let that happen to your stuff.


Private collectors and collections are the backbone of known history. The bulk of the most significant and seemingly insignificant objects of the greatest generation are being held in private collections, and will be held in private collections 300 years from now. We have no idea what is important now. That tends to change over the centuries. I've read somewhere that "99.8 percent of all art is lost over time". I believe that. I also believe the same statement holds true for antiquities. It's not too often in history when people close the contemporaries of the event think it is important enough to perserve it, and when they do it usually lasts only a generation or two, then it is gone. Hopefully, through the efforts of the good people here and elsewhere, and through digital storage, that number can get knocked down to 99.5 percent. I'm not being facietous, thats a good number, especially when you you figure conservatively that probably more than 75/80 percent of that stuff is in the dump already. It hasn't been a long time, but it's been long enough.

One sugestion....
Maybe Scott could put a sticky in the Photo section called Preservation. Photos and negatives and paper are probably the most fragile of these objects. Maybe some of our more learned compadres on Wix can give some adult supervision to us on how to store, conserve, and preserve them.


Hi JDK! I think we agree more than we disagree, and the gubmint wanting my land, money, guns, airplanes, cars, cigarettes, beer, children, absolute obeidience and mind, ain't no conspiracy, its a fact baby!

Take it easy all,
Orvis

_________________
DEEP THOUGHTS BY KIDS:
"If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be until the looting started. Age 15 "


Deep Thoughts,
Jack Handy