Warbird Information Exchange

All of my flights aboard Chuckie have ended with wheel landings. Our pilots treat those scarce tailwheel tires with kid gloves. We carry a spare with us on all flights, too.

Cheers!

_________________
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Port Charlotte, Florida

It was Jim Orton, he also used to land and come to a complete stop with the tail still in the air. He would then taxi to show center, turn and face the crowd and then lift the tail and wave to the crowd with it. I do have it all on a 8mm tape I ought to get transfered to DVD one day.

_________________
Matt Gunsch, A&P, IA, Warbird maint and restorations
Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
Check out the Ercoupe Discussion Group on facebook

I had 4000 hours in Beech 18's when I got into my first real B-17 co-pilot job in 1975.My first attempts to taxi the '17 were a good lesson in the effects of mass and weight.The same techniques work,but everything happens in slow motion in the larger airplane but once things begin to go wrong,it's a lot harder to save the situation.

With the Beech,or any similar multi-engine conventional gear airplane,you aren't finished flying until you are parked with the tailwheel locked and at least the main gear chocked and the airplane tied down,if possible.That said,it isn't that difficult once you get the hang of it,although take-offs,landings and ground handling are a bit like flying a helicopter in that once you can actually see things starting to go wrong,it's usually too late to do much about it.You have to stay a little ahead of the airplane at all times.

You use the engines and brakes to steer during taxi.I also use the tailwheel lock for an extended taxi in a straight line,although the B-17 will wander several degrees in either direction with the tailwheel lock engaged.When you need to make a 90 degree turn on the ground in a Beech,you unlock the tailwheel and (for a left turn) tap the left brake and give a short goose on the right throttle.Then you almost immediately tap the right brake and goose the left throttle to stop the turn.The same technique works with the B-17,but you normally taxi with just the outboards and it takes a bit more of an input on both the throttle and brake to initiate the turn and also more to stop it compared to the Beech.As I have mentioned,things happen more slowly in the larger airplane,but will get away from you at an earlier point in the turn if you don't pay attention.

I've had Beeches start to get away during taxi.Usually,it will be while trying to taxi with a strong wind blowing as either a tailwind or as a crosswind.What usually happens is that in starting the turn or in trying to stop it,a brake pedal will go flat (have to be pumped a couple of times) or the engine will backfire and give no power at the critical moment.Then things start to get interesting.That's a good time to have a lot of room available in all directions for a few seconds.If there's room,it's best to just let the airplane turn into the wind.All tail draggers are excellent weather vanes and will settle down once they get pointed into the wind.In the meantime,you get busy with pumping the brakes and wobbling the manual fuel pump and regroup.The B-17 can do the same thing,but it takes more room to regroup.

I had a hydraulic line blow during a half loaded landing in Tanker 65 (B-17) at Porterville.I think that I mentioned that in my B-17 thread.My copilot made the landing and the flex brake line at the top of the left main strut blew when we started to turn off the end of the runway at the reverse high speed.Jerry Glen (my c/p) hollered that we had no brakes,so I took over and by the time we finally got completely stopped on the taxiway,we'd covered about half a mile with only a brief excursion through the wheat stubble between the runway and the parallel taxiway.

So to answer one of the questions,yes,you can ground loop a B-17,but you either have to not be paying attention or have a failure at an inopportune moment.Also,I was taught that the proper method of landing a B-17 was a 3 point landing.I'd occasionally do a wheel landing at night or in a loaded landing with lots of runway available.The B-17 sits pretty tail high for a conventional gear airplane,so 3 points aren't as nose high as on a Beech or a DC-3.I almost always made tail low wheel landings in the Beech and Super DC-3,but I could and occasionally did land both airplanes 3 point on very short runways.With a high-gross Twin Beech with fuel in the nose tank,you had to get the speed exactly right in a full stall landing or the nose would drop and you'd bounce practically into orbit.

I have landed both three point and wheel. We usually wheel the airplane on and let the tail settle. As stated above tail wheel tires are getting scarce and so economics dictate, to some degree, our operating procedures. However she will make some very pretty three point landings and it feels like a big cub.

We fly our downwind at about 150MPH, lower the landing gear as we are approaching the field (it takes about 20 to 30 seconds to get all three wheels down.) By then you are abeam the numbers on downwind. We set throttles at 20" and leave the props in cruise (about 1700RPM.) Below 140MPH lower 1/4 flaps. Base leg about 130MPH and 1/2 flaps. Turn final and lower full flaps or less depending on the winds. Slow to about 115MPH on final. If you do it right you don't have to touch the throttles at all until short final.
After we know we have the runway made I will pull the throttles back to about 17" and start to round out. You also ask to pilot not flying to move the prop levers to high RPM in case you have to go around. The props are against the low pitch stops at this point so they won't surge as the levers are moved. If we are doing a wheel landing the key is to hold the nose slightly above the horizon, ease the power back, and keep the nose from dropping below the horizon with a little back pressure. On a three point landing you bring the nose just a little higher then in wheel landing and keep it from dropping while you ease the power off. If your timing is right the tires will touch just about the same time the throttles hit the idle stops. That low pitched chrip that those big 56SC tires make are music to my ears. No sound quite like it.

The B-17 does not like crosswinds. When it was designed in the 1930's, most airfields were big squares. Or they have 5 or 6 runways. So you could always land pretty close into the wind. There are fewer and fewer airports with crosswind runways these days. We are lucky because we have 16/34 and 09/27 runways at Meacham. That big tail and relatively small rudder give it about a 12MPH crosswind component. To make up for that you have to carry upwind engine in strong crosswinds to help keep the nose straight. Once you touch you don't pull all the power off right away or you just might head for the weeds. It is a ballet of rudder, aileron, upwind engine, and finally (after you have weight on the wheels) brakes that will get you stopped.

The airplane responds slowly so if you get behind the airplane it can be very hard to get it back. You learn to listen to you ass in the seat. I can FEEL a swerve starting milliseconds before I can see it. Taxing is the best way to learn how to control the airplane. It will humble and frustrate the He** out of you at first. If you can taxi a B-17 in all kinds of wind conditions, you can fly it.

Everytime I fly the B-17 or B-25 I am reminded of how very very lucky I am to have the privilige to do this. My father was in the Air Corps in WWII, and helped us work on the B-17 until his death in 2002. He was very proud of me for wanting to keep history and the memories of those guys alive. I hope everyone who gets to pilot, or even ride in a warbird remembers why these planes are so special.
I hope I didn't ramble on too long.

Patrick Mahaffey
B-17 "Chuckie" pilot/mechanic
B-25 "Pacific Prowler" pilot/mechanic

Great stuff to read thanks for taking the time to write it all down.

For the record I am not type rated in the B-17. I am the FNG in the right seat trying hard not to piss off Mac and embarrass myself. I am honored and extremely fortunate to be a part of this operation. Thanks Rob for that opportunity. The Collings folks are wonderful to work with and it is truly a blast.

_________________
To donate to the PV-2D project via PayPal click here http://www.twinbeech.com/84062restoration.htm

We brought her from: to this in 3 months: Help us get her all the way back

All donations are tax deductible as the Stockton Field Aviation Museum is a 501c3 nonprofit organization. Tell a friend as the Harpoon needs all the help she can get.

Thank you!

Taigh Ramey
Vintage Aircraft, Stockton, California
http://www.twinbeech.com
'KEEP ‘EM FLYING…FOR HISTORY!'

Interesting point - What's the B-17 that's operated for the longest, would people say? Accepting breaks in service even, who or which holds that honour?

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

So, are you saying that the crosswind limit is 12 MPH? Is that what you guys use?

Thanks for all of the wonderful info, guys! I love reading about first hand pilot reports.

If you break it down, the 17 that has been flying airshows the longest is Raiders, then SJ, and the rest follow them. In all the years I have been around Warbirds there have been 2 B-17 incidents, the first with SJ, that was caused by a hyd line blowing a coupler apart, caused by a A&P that did not know the difference between AN and AC fittings. It suffered a gash that ran from the FWD entry door to the bombay. It was repaired and flying within a month.

The other was 909, it went off the runway and down a hill causing sever damage to the airframe and several injuries amoung the passengers. it was caused by pilot error. The airframe was almost a write off and took several years to repair the aircraft.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 1923&key=1

So make your own judgment as to who has set the standard, at least as far as B-17 ops go.

_________________
Matt Gunsch, A&P, IA, Warbird maint and restorations
Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
Check out the Ercoupe Discussion Group on facebook

That is when I started into aviation. AS a kid hanging around there sweeping up, and helping where I could. i was hooked. 909 was indeed almost a write-off, as a matter in fact there are some big names that suggested the aircraft be scrapped. Thanks to the help of many volunteers, US AIR, the NMUSAF (oh I know hard to believe right) she got back in the air. Funny thign is that many components that were missing were installed at Air Heritage such as a real ball turret, and a complete tail stinger.
Funny story is that the plane was finished and left Air heritage, and went to a rebuilder in Florida. The rebuilder in Florida wrote up an article complaining about a few repairs that were done on the aircraft, only to find that the repairs he was complaining about were done by his shop the bombers first time through. Of course no apology was ever had.

_________________
Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

My Dad, Roger Hadfield, was Co-pilot in a B-17G which was intentionally ground-looped in Maiquetia, Venezuela, 1960.

They landed, the skipper got on the brakes, and suddenly my Dad was drenched with hydraulic fluid. No brakes at all. The runway wasn't long and they were looking at apartment buildings. Getting closer. Getting bigger. Fast!

So the skipper used rudder and power and initiated a ground loop. They went through a wild skidding, careening, curving maneuver just shy of the fence. Dad swore the gear was going to collapse, but it didn't.

Finally they aimed the thing at a mudhole and got stopped.

Dad needed new clothes and the Fort needed a bulldozer, but all survived.



They wheeled it, even on the 3500' gravel strips in the Arctic of 1960. But of course they were right on the numbers, right on the end. Like Rob G says, if it wasn't just-right, go-around, no options.

Dave

I was based in Alamogordo twice in B-17's.The first was in TBM's Tanker 68 (N3703G) in 1980 and the other was in Evergreen's Tanker 22 (N207EV) IN 1983.Alamogordo has a single runway and often has a strong and gusty crosswind.The best crosswind technique that I found with the B-17 was to carry lots of power on the upwind engines and as little as possible on the downwind engines as well as keeping the wing down into the wind while on final.If the wing came up or dropped more than I wanted,it was best to bring the wing up or down with the rudder rather than the aileron because it worked much more quickly.It wasn't unusual to have to reach up and pull power off the upwind engines for a few seconds and then put it back in to keep the nose straight.

With crosswinds of more than 20kts,a wheel landing was in order.This worked pretty well,but it was tricky getting the tail down and the upwind power off before the runway started to run out.Then,we had a problem with having to use F11F main mount tires as tailwheel tires as these had no flex in the sidewall and would cause the tailwheel to lock to unlock itself after a couple of good side loads from wind gusts.Then,the only thing to do was to get the tail back up and use all of the controls until you were almost stopped or the tailwheel tire would turn sideways and you could peel the tread off in a couple of hundred feet.I don't miss Alamogordo very much.

Tanker 68 at Williams AFB in 1980



Tanker 68 at Alamogordo in 1980



Alamogordo airport from Tanker 22 in 1983



Evergreen's Tanker 22 at Alamogordo in 1983



Another shot of Tanker 22 at Alamogordo in 1983

How can I be a B-17 pilot? I'll be flight instructing in a few weeks, and am working on my multi-engine commercial add on.

Larry, those are awesome pics.

_________________
Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

Let me clairfy this. 12MPH is about the max crosswind component that the rudder alone can handle. Above that and you need to start adding upwind engine to help keep the nose down the runway.
You can land the airplane in much stronger x-winds than 12MPH, but you have to consider wether you can touchdown, slow down, and maintain directional control before you run out of runway.

We did have to divert a few years ago because of strong crosswinds. Winds were 70 degrees off the 5000' runway blowing at 25 Gusting to 35 (not what had been forecasted) . We made three attempts, then gave up and went home.



First of all you need to join an organization that has a flying B-17 and work you way up through the ranks. You won't get there in a year, or two, or more. I was with our B-17 for about 6 years before I got into the right seat. But I showed up every weekend, did whatever needed to be done, studied the airplane and it's systems inside and out, and was lucky enough to be with the organization when we were short on co-pilots.
The other thing you need is LOTS of tailwheel time. That can be hard to come by these days unless you own a taildragger, or know where to rent one. My dad owned a 170 (which I now have) so over half my total time is in tailwheel airplanes. You can never have too much tailwheel time.

Another teriffic thread folks. Great stuff, a privilage to get so many great insights.

Thanks Matt. So how much is that in years?

Incidentally, in Europe, Sally B has been operating pretty continuously since 1975, which is a very creditable record on many levels (can't raise revenue through rides, no national or 'official' support etc.) A great memorial in the 8th's territory.

A question for the pilots, if I may - is it better to have a reasonable amount of weight aboard when landing, or not? My impression with the BBMF and their Lancaster is that it can be a bit skittish as it is operated at lower weights than wartime - obviously at take of, and this will be common across all heavys - no max war overloads. Of course Larry and his working B-17s (great Pics, Larry, BTW, thanks - you got to go to all the cool places, hey?) were pretty heavily loaded, weren't they?

Cheers,

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com