Geneseo B-23 update

Chris · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:47 pm

Thanks for unlocking the thread Ryan. I think this is an important issue concerning not only the 1941 HAG and the B-23, but all museums and the viability of restoring fringe type warbirds. I think everyone can agree about the mainstream types, Corsairs, P-51s etc but others such as PV-2s (which there are a ton of restorable airframes around) and the B-23 are types that I am thinking about. At the CAF Az Wing, we have a Grumman Guardian that I would love to see fly, but cost and manpower will limit the restoration efforts to a nice static display. With the flyable planes we have, B-17, T-6(new engine this week) C-45 and B-25 (almost) our financial resources are pretty thin. The manpower issue is the one that concerns me the most. It is very difficult to draw new members to our group when most still have to work for a living during the week but yet your maintenance staff continually tells new members that maintenance only takes place on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. This is a point that Ryan brought up regarding new members and to what degree will they be allowed to participate. We have lost several A&Ps that have wanted to join but could only participate on weekends. So even if we had a "new" project that supposedly would bring people out of the woodwork to pitch in, the prevailing attitude would circumvent that hope. My hope for 1941 HAG is that they will welcome with open arms anyone who is willing to help with the B-23. Sweeping floors is a neccessary skill by ALL members but you need to reward them by letting them come out and try to participate to the limits of their skills and desires. Again, Good Luck 1941 HAG. Here are a few pics of Pimas B-23. Great static resto

Edward Sheetmetalhands · **Joined:** Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:44 am **Posts:** 257

Was wondering if anyone noticed the B-23 in the movie Tucker, the Man and his Dream. He is whisked away to visit Howard Hughes in a B-23... all bare aluminum and the tail 39-22, at least I thought.

The actual Hughes B-23 was 39-33; http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled ... id=1171527

Anyone else catch this?

marine air · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:48 pm

Ryan, I feel more optimistic about the B-23 as I feel it was in the "buy" category based on it's price, the fact it's a Douglas product, a WW II bomber, and it is fairly complete.
I have a record of saying it's "okay" if a museum sells an asset every once in a while. I think if the B-23 was restored to static display with a neat paint scheme, and dummy guns, it could easily find a buyer with the military collector crowd. The WW II military vehicles like tanks and armor and DUKW's start at about 50K and go well over $100K. Some guys have millions of dollars in tanks, jeeps etc. They just don't want any more unfinshed projects.
I think if it had a General's VIP scheme or one of the units attacked at Pearl harbor, and if you could flip the master switch and turn on the position lights, beacon, and cockpit lights, you could get a good price for it. If it was in ground taxiable conditon, it would make some M.V. collectors drool.

Nathan · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:23 am

marine air wrote:

Ryan, I feel more optimistic about the B-23 as I feel it was in the "buy" category based on it's price, the fact it's a Douglas product, a WW II bomber, and it is fairly complete.
I have a record of saying it's "okay" if a museum sells an asset every once in a while. I think if the B-23 was restored to static display with a neat paint scheme, and dummy guns, it could easily find a buyer with the military collector crowd. The WW II military vehicles like tanks and armor and DUKW's start at about 50K and go well over $100K. Some guys have millions of dollars in tanks, jeeps etc. They just don't want any more unfinshed projects.
I think if it had a General's VIP scheme or one of the units attacked at Pearl harbor, and if you could flip the master switch and turn on the position lights, beacon, and cockpit lights, you could get a good price for it. If it was in ground taxiable conditon, it would make some M.V. collectors drool.

No B-23's were based in Hawaii at the time of the attack. B-18's where though.

JDK · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:44 am

marine air wrote:

Ryan, I feel more optimistic about the B-23 as I feel it was in the "buy" category based on it's price, the fact it's a Douglas product, a WW II bomber, and it is fairly complete.
I have a record of saying it's "okay" if a museum sells an asset every once in a while. I think if the B-23 was restored to static display with a neat paint scheme, and dummy guns, it could easily find a buyer with the military collector crowd. The WW II military vehicles like tanks and armor and DUKW's start at about 50K and go well over $100K. Some guys have millions of dollars in tanks, jeeps etc. They just don't want any more unfinshed projects.
I think if it had a General's VIP scheme or one of the units attacked at Pearl harbor, and if you could flip the master switch and turn on the position lights, beacon, and cockpit lights, you could get a good price for it. If it was in ground taxiable conditon, it would make some M.V. collectors drool.

I don't think Ryan's suggesting it shouldn't be sold. My understanding is that, as ever, the purchase price will be the smallest cost in what is a thoroughly rotten, corroded gutless type with no parts support, or minimal historic importance. (I quite like the Dragon, but you have to stretch to find a 'this is important because...' point for it.) A quick search on the forum will show Gary Austin's 'report' on tyhe machine, and it's a 'walk away from' project if I've ever seen one.

Promoting it as a Pearl Harbor era machine (with or without bells n' whistles) is creative - but, again, my understanding (and I agree) of Ryan's point is that cash and effort can be better spent on more significant aircraft with much less limited importance, appeal and utility.

That's not to degenerate the team's effort, just my opinion. YMMV.

Cheers,

Nathan · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:55 am

What could they get for $50k? A L-5, maybe a PT of some sorte? :vom:

Here they are getting a rare pre-war bomber for a very good price. The majority of the money was donated. All other aircraft the HAG has gotten the last several years were all donated. When will the time ever be right to start moving farward? I have seen pictures of the ship and it does need a lot of things. But I really don't see it that bad shape as some have stated. It clearly doesnt deserve to be called "rotten, corroded gutless type". Keep positive people. If we turned away every airplane portject out there then there would be no warbirds today. Keep postive. No more negative waves, please. :idea:

Thanks,
Nathan

Nathan · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:02 am

The B-23 is the aircraft HAG wants, we have a fighter fund set up, we have a T-6 almost done, we have two C-47s, A-20 and a B-17 that makes her home here. That is a good line up!!! It's everyone dream to have a well known fighter and or bomber. We have different aircraft. Were else can you go here in Western NY or most of NY and see a C-119 or a A-20 or even a B-23?

JDK · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:57 am

Quote:

Keep positive people. If we turned away every airplane portject out there then there would be no warbirds today. Keep postive. No more negative waves, please. :idea:

I'd be flattered if even I thought my opinion was likely to stop anyone's efforts at preservation.

Nathan wrote:

I have seen pictures of the ship and it does need a lot of things. But I really don't see it that bad shape as some have stated. It clearly doesnt deserve to be called "rotten, corroded gutless type".

Hmmm. Pictures. Not a good guide to corrosion issues as a rule.

From here:
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=11161

retroaviation wrote:

The airplane is is a VERY corroded condition. The CAF High Sky Wing tried diligently to make efforts to restore the airplane, but when they got deeper and deeper into the airplane, it was discovered that it was simply too much for them to take on.

That is not to say that the airplane isn't repairable, it's just going to cost much more than what it's probably ever going to be worth. Would anyone here want to spend $500,000 on an airplane that probably isn't worth $200,000 when it's finished? That's the perdicament the CAF is in with the airplane.

Old Shep or FG1D Pilot could better tell everyone the eventual status of the airplane. I think there was serious discussion about making it a nice static display, but that didn't seem to take hold yet.

Gary

And:

Old Shep wrote:

Speaking for the High Sky Wing first...we spent a bunch of money to retrieve the airplane from South Texas to get it to Midland. Initially we thought that it could be made ferry-able but discovered that it had been damaged, some parts removed, etc, by people unknown, so we had it trucked to Midland. After spending more money and time, we discovered that the airframe was pretty much riddled with corrosion. We had a retired Douglas engineer acquire all the blue prints, maintenance diagrams, etc, on microfilm, inspect the airplane, run some numbers and come up with a final figure: $500K was the conservative estimate, with $750K more realistic. The High Sky Wing returned the airplane to CAF HQ, as per CAF regs, and it has been up for reassignment ever since. As Gary points out, it is a $200K airplane that will cost (now) a million to fix, and then you get such a rare airplane that it appears to be an oddity...People constantly think it is a twin-engined B-17...

As far as making it a museum static airplane, I'm all in favor, but I'm only one voice on the General Staff.

Old Shep

One minute's research = qualified, firsthand, experienced opinion.

Yes it can be saved. Is it the best use of HAGs resources is the question.

richkolasa · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:18 am

IMHO, the main factor in making this a good or bad decision is the "shipping cost". Anyone have an estimate on that? If that doesn't get too costly, then I think with the $20K donation made mention of, it might not be a bad idea in the long run.

Still, had one of the flyers been available, and it was able to be signed off for rides, I think that might have been a better idea since B-17s aren't exactly readily available.

Rich

warbird51 · **Joined:** Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:18 pm **Posts:** 263

The B-23 used in the movie "Tucker" was in fact B-23, #39-33, N747M. It is the ex-Howard Hughes bird. We just painted over the military markings for the movie. After the filming, we removed the movie paint.

Wayne, former crew chief, B-23 N747M

Edward Sheetmetalhands wrote:

Was wondering if anyone noticed the B-23 in the movie Tucker, the Man and his Dream. He is whisked away to visit Howard Hughes in a B-23... all bare aluminum and the tail 39-22, at least I thought.

The actual Hughes B-23 was 39-33; http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled ... id=1171527

Anyone else catch this?

tom roberts · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:26 pm

Ryan. An excellent post. I don't believe the Dragon is a wise choice either. As a past member like you of NWM and HAG I have to bite my tongue or else I would be off and running on past history

hallibagger · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:53 pm

I would like to add my 2 cents worth also. I am ex-RAF, a member of 1941HAG and I was a longtime member of CWH, but after I retired I became involved in the restoration of the Handley Page Halifax at the RCAF Memorial Museum at CFB Trenton. As some may know this aircraft was recovered from a lake in Norway in pretty good condition. Being on a military base gave us access to some tools and equipment and also to some C130, Hercs, to help us move materials around!

We were lucky to have access to a pool of retired military aircraft tradesmen and about 100 volunteers worked on the restoration of this aircraft to static display condition. In addition we had a dedicated group of fundraisers who continuously sought funds so that the project would not be delayed for a lack of money.

Even with the above support the project took about 12 years to complete, in fact some work is still continuing, a $1,000,000 worth of new materials, not counting the considerable amount of donated materials and a recorded 360,000 man hours of shop work. The project ran mostly 6 days of the week with a small group working on Sundays.

Of course there was a significant amount of work done by the many helpers in Britain in securing authentic parts to replace those items which were un-restorable. My point is that this B-23 project will require a major commitment by a very serious group of volunteers.

Nathan · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:05 pm

Why is this B-23 corroded in the first place?

Django · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:08 pm

Nathan wrote:

Why is this B-23 corroded in the first place?

uh... it has spent the last 70 years outside. :roll:

Nathan · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:15 pm

Django wrote:

Nathan wrote:

Why is this B-23 corroded in the first place?

uh... it has spent the last 70 years outside. :roll:

My point exactly.

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Geneseo B-23 update

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