P-38 roll, a bit low.

[JDK]

"Those "Photo Joes" were pretty crazy, but it helped to be that way. An F-5E, returning from a very successful mission, performed a "victory" roll at this ridiculously low altitude, and it was recorded by an AAF photographer."

Interesting. The RAF Photo Reconnaissance pilots had it dinned into them that not returning alive and in one piece with the photos was a failure. I can't see any of the dedicated PR pilots trying to chuck away their vital work at the last minute. I don't think even 'ace' and maverick PR flyer Adrian Warburton would do something so counter-productive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Warburton

Could have done without the link to the tragic P-38 crash at Duxford.

[Fouga23]

Due to the fact that my English is very poor, I think it will be better to join a video.

h*ly sh*t

[Nathan]

This pic is from the Warren M. Bodie book, The Lockheed P-38 Lightning.

Caption reads,

"Those "Photo Joes" were pretty crazy, but it helped to be that way. An F-5E, returning from a very successful mission, performed a "victory" roll at this ridiculously low altitude, and it was recorded by an AAF photographer."

When I show this picture to people, the non-pilots say "ok so" and pilots always seem to say "HOLY poo poo".



Regards,
Mike

oooohhhh SNAP!!!

[Nathan]

The P38 seems to be rolling by the left, I am not sure but I think I can see some deflection down on the right aileron. So I imagine the pilot was finishing his roll.
Despite of this, He seems to be too low and in a bad nose down attitude to recover safely.
It reminds me a bad souvenir: when TFC P38 crashed after its second aileron roll at Duxford (I guess it was in 1996). The pilot entered into the 2nd roll without rising the nose and with a continuous rate of roll.
Then, the lightning begans to enter in a nose down attitude and regarding of this, was in late in its roll.
The Pilot applied full power on right engine and unfortunately crashed when finishing is roll in a big ball of fire.
As I remember the accident might have been produced by a aileron servo lock, to the left.
Due to the fact that my English is very poor, I think it will be better to join a video.
Despite I have never flew a lightning, my experience told me to be very caution with heavy airplanes, especially those with low rate of roll, and to avoid to engage them in nose down attitude very close from the ground.

Regarding the first picture, in French Navy we had something to describe this:
Too low, too slow; too stupid!

Hello sir,

I would not say the pilot was stupid. It was an accident nothing more nothing less. That video is a pretty sensitive thing here on WIX. Everytime I see that video it sends chills up my spine.

[John Beyl]

This pic is from the Warren M. Bodie book, The Lockheed P-38 Lightning.

Caption reads,

"Those "Photo Joes" were pretty crazy, but it helped to be that way. An F-5E, returning from a very successful mission, performed a "victory" roll at this ridiculously low altitude, and it was recorded by an AAF photographer."

When I show this picture to people, the non-pilots say "ok so" and pilots always seem to say "HOLY poo poo".



Regards,
Mike

My guess is the pilot is not executing a roll at all. If he was I have little doubt there would be a crash record of this flight! I’d bet the day’s pay he’s doing a very tight knife edge corner and got her a wee bit past 90. An old Mustang jock friend of mine used to do this all the time. It looked quite precarious but in reality it wasn’t as long as sufficient smash was maintained.

Major Haskin…you’re such a yoker!

John

[bipe215]

That's a little more than a 'wee bit' past vertical. I'd guess about thirty-five degree's. I don't think you can assume that a roll this low is fatal. The airplane's capable of it, in the right hands.

Steve G

[James D]

The picture looks faked to me. Something doesn´t sit quite right with it.

[Kyleb]

The picture looks faked to me. Something doesn´t sit quite right with it.

Bingo.

Unless something is badly distorted by the photo's perspective, the airplane is too low to complete a roll given that the nose is already down. And since this photo doesn't have a caption of "Right before the crash", I assume there wasn't a crash.

Which means the photo is faked.

[kenlyco]

The camera got it right at the perfect time, so I still think he is just starting to lay off the ailerons and is starting to push the "Yoke" forward until he gets the nose up and then he will snap back over, its like part of a ouside loop. my 2 cents?

[Kyleb]

The camera got it right at the perfect time, so I still think he is just starting to lay off the ailerons and is starting to push the "Yoke" forward until he gets the nose up and then he will snap back over, its like part of a ouside loop. my 2 cents?

It would take a *huge* push to change the attitude of the airplane enough to overcome the lift vector and the nose down attitude and keep it out of the dirt.

A P-38 ain't a Pitts, and that photo shows a situation that would be scary as heck in the Pitts.

Bogus photo.

[jaybird]

The days of Photoshop has folks 2nd guessing photos alot.....so a few of you contend that the published book contains a faked photo? I'm not saying it's not possible, but certainly strikes me as highly unlikely. There is nothing in the photo that looks modified, ie; colors, angles, etc.

We really can't say what maneuver is being captured, nor do we know where it started to understand which trajectory the energy is travelling.

I've heard a few stories of low level acro during the war from men that were there to witness it. One was from a gent in the Aleutians who watched P-40's going down the runway inverted at a ridiculously low level (almost tying the record ). Unfortunately one young man did tie the record and the ensuing wreckage went right through the mess hall......as the story goes.

[kenlyco]

Do you think if he was at this point he can recover?

The picture looks faked to me. Something doesn´t sit quite right with it.

I was thinking the same thing at first, but if it isn't fake, I just cannot see this thing ending up other than in a ball of flame. Tha angle of attack and altitude is not something that looks recoverable and as far as i'm aware, a P-38 is not a great snap roller. IMHO.

I just had a conversation with one of my computer geeks I use for architectural renderings. I told him to take a look at this photo and he stated he could make that photo look just the way it does with several of his computer programs. he thinks that P-38 was upright and level and the same altitude. he suggested looking at the two fellows looking up. he thinks the P-38 was level and that they would have the posture they actually have in the photo because it was no big deal. if that P-38 was at that angle for real, he suggests they would have been diving for cover. Just a theory.

Last edited by Hellcat on Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[RyanShort1]

Does anyone have contact information for Mr. Bodie? The caption says it's from his collection... Also, the caption says:

"An F-5E, returning from a very successful mission, performed a "victory" roll at this ridiculously low altitude, and it was recorded by an AAF photographer.

So, my thinking is that: 1) The photo is probably real. 2) The mission must've ended successfully, for them to know that it was a "very successful" mission, and 3) The AAF photographer would've probably also left a record of the crash...

Ryan

[PinecastleAAF]

Here we go again.