Zinc Chromate Primer

[Jim Beasley]

Thanks for the advice but Rich is doing a good job keeping them firmly on the ground .... Heck I don't even think they've seen sunlight much less heat from the sun

I recently (well not that recently but time flows through the universe differently when dealing with warbird restorations) got my wings back ...

That's great. I knew there was a time warp around here somewhere, and it's centred on the aircraft in bits!

By the way, Jim, don't fly too near the sun in those new wings....

[The Inspector]

There some of you go, don't do your baseline research first, just straddle the pony and charge-I said 'chemical compounds' in the stuff. The water based is much more effective at bonding with metal, is safer for all and everything involved and is about the same cost. with less all around mess-

I'll bet none of you went to the NIOSH website to look it up did you? (GOOGLE NIOSH) Anyone visit the MSDS website? Look up Methelethyl Keytones, see what long term effects it causes to the human body, look up polycyanic esthers the 'carrier' medium in most paints see what they say about them. Drying agents, the list goes on and on-While you're at it, look up Chromic Acid, ALODINE and see how it will throw a spanner in your machinery, even outside of California, ALODINE is a know carcenogen.

listen folks, I want everyone on this forum to stay healthy and still be ready for a fight when you're 123 years old, not to hear that 'Joseph M. Lunchpounder, noted aircraft restoration expert died today at age 59 from complications of liver failure resulting from inhallation of the chemicals he used in his business'

[JDK]

I'll continue to stand well back, then...

On a related point, I was told that etch primer actually eats into the surface of the metal, to work properly. So far so good. However, I was also told that it continues to do this 'for ever' just very very lowly, so will eventually eat through the metal completely - in, say, 500 years. Is this good science anyone? (Given that we don't have any mediaeval etch-primed suits of armour...)

[mustanglover]

Typically, alodine is used to etch the surface and corrosion proof aluminum prior to priming. It provides something for the primer coating to hold onto.

Self etching primers are used also, but I am not sure what action stops the etching process. You may be on to something there for all I know.

I'll continue to stand well back, then...

On a related point, I was told that etch primer actually eats into the surface of the metal, to work properly. So far so good. However, I was also told that it continues to do this 'for ever' just very very lowly, so will eventually eat through the metal completely - in, say, 500 years. Is this good science anyone? (Given that we don't have any mediaeval etch-primed suits of armour...)

[The Inspector]

Sure does, but then again, even if you Alodine a piece of aluminum it will very very slowly continue to corrode so I guess you'd all better rush down to the airport and look at that AMERICAN AIRLINES 777 before it's all gone in about 500 years or so. The skins on polished aircraft from Boeing used to get a quick coat of Alodine 1000 to protect the surface, (like less than 1 minute exposure)but it doesn't cause color shift, Boeing just recently stopped using Alodine and substituted another environmently friendly pre-treatment to cut down on the 65,000 gallons of funky water created in a month in the Everett paint hanger by alodining.
Rust never sleeps either, it's only on FIATS, mid 70's Chevy/GMC pickups and SUV's and YUGOS that you hear them rust a you walked past
Anodizing will stop corrosion until the surface is scratched but it's really, really expensive and only works on aluminum so no hope for that tri 5 Chevy you're restoring-

[muddyboots]

why do I always have to ask the stupid questions around here?

Why is Zink Chromate bad for you?

[JDK]

Rust never sleeps either, it's only on FIATS, mid 70's Chevy/GMC pickups and SUV's and YUGOS that you hear them rust a you walked past

You left out 1970s MGs which I'm thoroughly familiar with.

However, my understanding (serious boring question coming...) was that rust would eventually stabilise (environmental conditions depending of course) requiring oxygen to continue; so once coated with rust, the chemical change slows, and eventually stops - rather than the non-oxygen needing etching process?

And I really, really, don't know why I want to know about this.... Sorry.

[The Inspector]

Muddyboots,
The only stupid question is the one you (figuratively) thought was too stupid to ask. That guy Zink Chromate is OK except he double dips in the salsa.
It's Chromate derivatives like Zinc Chromate that will make you look like Calvin (from the comic strip) eating a Brussel Sprout, did you look @ CHROMATE in the NIOSH webpage, it's #136 and has an asterik next to it meaning know carcenogin. Chromate is chromate whether it contains zinc or not, it's not good for ya!!

JDK,
IF you can 100% encapsualte a piece of ferrous material in a guaranteed to stay flexable coating, after assuring that 100% of any oxygen has been removed, then you stand a pretty fair chance of makng that item last for quite a while, Pierce the encapsulation even a minute amount and the rust awakens, that's why cannons and swords fished out of peat bogs look all bright and shiny for about 12 minutes until oxygen attaches itself and lunch is on -
And the chemical etching process does continue but at a slower pace than you might imagine, you'll get a rational answer back from your elected officials before etch through even enters your thought processes.
I forgot about MG's wasting away, I always presumed that all the oil that leaked out would protect the metal.
And, no your question is not and will never be considered as 'boring' If I want to know something I'll ask and balance out the replies I get back and assertain the truth from there-fair enough?

[Broken-Wrench]

If you think the fighting is bad on wix look on the homebuilt aircraft web Sites!! PRIMER WARS! /and yes it is very heated!! It is a battlel royal fight 0over who has the best primer and whether they should be primed at all

[JDK]

IF you can 100% encapsualte a piece of ferrous material in a guaranteed to stay flexable coating, after assuring that 100% of any oxygen has been removed, then you stand a pretty fair chance of makng that item last for quite a while, Pierce the encapsulation even a minute amount and the rust awakens, that's why cannons and swords fished out of peat bogs look all bright and shiny for about 12 minutes until oxygen attaches itself and lunch is on -

Thanks! I'm familiar with (but hadn't joined the dots) that coating or treatment concept as used by museums for the purpose of preserving those self-same swords, belt buckles etc.

Interestingly* I was discussing an iron latch on a farm door (with someone in a museum conservation dept - it was nearly lunchtime...) that was about 120 years old (estimated). It was very rusty, except for the bit which was handled by the shepherd (and his predecessors) with hands which were in contact with sheep-grease (liniment) which had worn the metal smooth, but there was, of course, no rust there...

And the chemical etching process does continue but at a slower pace than you might imagine, you'll get a rational answer back from your elected officials before etch through even enters your thought processes.

Yeah, we were debating between whether it was a 200 - 2,000 year issue. And then there's the etch process.

And all the glass will end up flowing to the bottom of the frame - in a millennium.

I forgot about MG's wasting away, I always presumed that all the oil that leaked out would protect the metal.

Of COURSE! If only I'd known to run a tube from the oil cooler (or 'auto-leak') to the sills, it'd still be with me now...

And, no your question is not and will never be considered as 'boring' If I want to know something I'll ask and balance out the replies I get back and assertain the truth from there-fair enough?

Sure. Thanks!

*Or not.

[The Inspector]

MAYBE-

[engguy]

Actually all this may not be bad for the environment at all. It all came from here and was not transmuted in a nuclear reactor so I feel its just more old Gore crap.

If something with water as the vehicle is so good to put on metals. Then why not just try just the good old vehicle in the mixture on that metal and see what happens. I'm sure nice clean steel will rust. Oh and how do you clean and prep the metal? If it is a mineral solvent based paint you can use the mineral solvent to clean with. Does this mean you can use the stand alone solvent in a water based paint? That solvent is just plain old water, it has no decent way to cut oil or grease by itself.
And in the end if the mineral based solvent was so bad there would be no Jet engines at all. Because they spew it out by the tons into the environment saying nothing about fuel dumping to land, yeah tons of good old raw hydrocarbons smack into the air, hmmm how many of the enviro nut case politicers even think or want to think about the planes they fly on and the massive pollution they put out. Want clean aircraft go back to the 40's and early 50's, all they did it drip a bit, but got great fuel economy and way less polution than a jet.

[The Inspector]

Just because something didn't come from a 'nuclear reactor' doesn't make it OK. Proof of that would be for you to put Deadly Nightshade berries (100% natural) on your Corn Flakes, I'll sit back and watch, 'must OK birds eat them'

Do whatever you like out of a 'darn the torpedos' attitude, I just know what I teach has been researched and approved as the correct way to utilize the stuff and still stay safe and healthy for a long, long time and keep the world around me cleaner and safe-

[PinecastleAAF]

Rust never sleeps either, it's only on FIATS, mid 70's Chevy/GMC pickups and SUV's and YUGOS that you hear them rust a you walked past

[Matt Gunsch]

Did any Yugos live long enough to rust ?