franz stigler

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:10 pm

you guys have your pissing contest....... i want to know what is in the luft pilot's estate!!! maybe that will paint some gray areas black or white!!!

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:24 pm

Quote:

i want to know what is in the luft pilot's estate!!!

Franz had all his medals and insignia plus a lot of photos but I can't image his family parting with them. All we seem to be talking about here are some signed prints

Chicoartist · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:28 pm

Stigler and the Fortress pilot met at the 8th AF Museum in Pooler (Savannah), Ga a while back. The museum has a little display with a photo of the two along with "the story". There's also a Mike Wooten print of his "The Gallant Foe" painting on display, along with a fairly detailed description of the 'alleged' event to accompany the art.

I can't tell you with certainty if the event actually happened or not, but I'm genuinely curious: are the doubters saying that the event is basically made up? Like if I said I have soloed a Mustang? :lol:

. . . That would put Charles Brown (the B-17 pilot) in the category of liar as well since he's been party to a few stories that I've seen on the 'event'.

Maybe the truth is a little in the middle - the Luftwaffe pilot was out of ammo and flew alongside to see the lucky faces? Much later, when they got together it came out that "Yeah, I coulda shot you guys down, but I took the high road ... ain't I a great guy?!" now, THAT makes sense to me.

Google supplied the Fort crew names:

The following are the crew and their positions on their mission to Bremen, Germany 12/20/43 in aircraft 42-3167 (FO-S)

?Ye Old Pub?

Brown, Charles L 2nd Lt Pilot

Luke, Spencer G 2nd Lt Co-Pilot

Sadok, Albert (NMI) 2nd Lt Navigator

Andrews, Robert M 2nd Lt Bombardier

Pechout, Richard A S/Sgt Radio Operator/Gunner

Coulombe, Bertrand O S/Sgt Top Turret Gunner

Blackford, Samuel W Sgt Ball Turret Gunner

Jennings, Lloyd H Sgt Right Waist Gunner

Yelesanke, Alex (NMI) Sgt Left Waist Gunner

Eckenrode, Hugh S S /Sgt Tail Gunner KIA

Wade

airnutz · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:06 pm

Chicoartist wrote:

. . . That would put Charles Brown (the B-17 pilot) in the category of liar as well since he's been party to a few stories that I've seen on the 'event'.

Maybe the truth is a little in the middle - the Luftwaffe pilot was out of ammo and flew alongside to see the lucky faces? Much later, when they got together it came out that "Yeah, I coulda shot you guys down, but I took the high road ... ain't I a great guy?!" now, THAT makes sense to me.

Am I remembering the story correctly? Didn't Stigler come forward some years later to claim he was the one who "spared" the B-17 crew?

That doesn't make Brown and crew liars, but it does paint Stigler in the interesting position of being an oppurtunist...given his past in Africa his history caught up with him creating the doubt?

I too wondered about that same "truth in the middle" possibility Wade.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:33 pm

There are an endless number of possibilities.
Remember Fred Kohn/Arnold whose book was made up of
episodes that happen to other pilots he flew with. Plus, of course, the
made up stuff.
Could this have actually have happened even to a lesser degree with another German pilot??? Sure.
Could Brown be stretching the truth a little bit?? Possibly
Do any of Brown's crew survive?? If so what are they're accounts of the mission??
2 stories and a couple paintings don't equal fact. Just ask Mike Kawato and Pappy Boyington.
One thing is for sure Franz's problems in Africa don't add credibility to his story.
What so many people don't realize is that just by raising your right hand and putting on the uniform of your country makes you a hero.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:54 pm

new on ebay.....................
http://cgi.ebay.com/W2-Oblt-Franz-Stigler-Autograph-Print-100-Original_W0QQitemZ370051627169QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

groundpounder · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:39 pm

ya know jack , its too bad your last post didnt sound like your first. it sounds a lot more like you might be willing to compromise. i would agree with you on that perspective, peace.

JägerMarty · **Posted:** Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:36 am

groundpounder wrote:

ya know jack you are really coming across as an arrogant s.o.b..

Settle down mate, it's not HIS fault the provenance of your catch is going downhill a bit :lol:

lmritger · **Posted:** Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:20 am

I met Herr Stigler and Charles Brown at an event hosted by Ernie Boyette back in 1998, and Brown was quite vocal in saying he considered Stigler his "brother from another mother" (in so many words or less). The two formed a lasting friendship from the point when Brown's original query went out in Air Force Magazine back in the 70s or 80s, and if I recall the story correctly, Stigler was brought into this by someone else who had heard he had "escorted" a wounded bomber. I'll have to go back and look up the genesis of this, but I don't think this is a case of "Hey guys, look at me!"

The German fighter pilot fraternity is notoriously fickle about those whom they feel have fabricated claims or dishonored the Jagdwaffe- witness their treatment of Hermann Graf for the "crime" of having worked for the Russians after several years of imprisonment, or the uproar a few years back over Rudorffer's claims- but to my knowledge, Stigler was still well regarded by his fellow pilots in spite of his North African misadventures. It also says something that he was a member of JV 44 at the end of the war, flying Me 262s... were he not a pilot whose abilities were trusted, he wouldn't have been in that position.

The bottom line is this... Brown and Stigler were both decent men and an absolute pleasure to speak with. Both of them were convinced of their joint encounter sixty-odd years ago, and it formed a close bond between them until Stigler's passing. That speaks far louder than any futile efforts to disprove the "facts" surrounding an event none of us were present for.

Lynn

groundpounder · **Posted:** Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:07 am

not my catch, not my hero,nothing to win or lose by going either way. sorry i brought it up. no wonder people are gettin'outta here.

Nathan · **Posted:** Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:00 pm

Quote:

no wonder people are gettin'outta here

Are we losing people?

bipe215 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:10 pm

So, after all this shakes out, we know for sure that Brown was a 379th B-17 pilot and his ship was damaged beyond repair on that day. The real questions are: 1) was his ship AS damaged as the story goes 2) was there a 109 escort part of the way home and 3) if so, was it Stigler?

Steve G