Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:34 am
DoraNineFan wrote:I though I read somewhere that they at least were going to cut [U-534] in logical assembly places. And that the sections could be turned into a museum.
That was my impression too. In fact, I found a website which claims that is exactly what has happened...
http://www.atlantik-pirat.com/
Just one week ago (June 20, 2008) the web master posted an update which reads...
"I am always so thrilled to visit the U-534 at her new home at Woodside and this last visit was no exception. The framework for the new Visitor Centre is in place and the concrete was being poured in as I was there. The whole site is starting to resemble the Artist's Impressions."
http://www.atlantik-pirat.com/U-534page2.htm
With full credit to the host of atlantik-pirat.com and the folks at Merseytravel (whom I expect are anxious to get the word out about what they are doing to anyone who is interested) I've taken the liberty of reproducing the renderings of the U-534 museum proposal and photos from the construction site below.
Not ideal, to be sure, but preferable to the alternative of seeing her completely destroyed...
Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:44 am
This U-Boat was a private wreck recovery, and had suffered from the effects of salt exposure, but was certainly worth preserving rather than being lost.
Large "Transport" exhibits in open air display are always going to be at risk, look at the Vulcans in the UK, either in private hands or some of the smaller museums.
Ships are a particular problem, examples are the Cabot as previously mentioned or current battles are:
1. to stop the National Maritime Museum of Scotland "deconstructing" the oldest surviving "Clipper Ship" a rare 1800's England to Australia sailing ship the former SS Adelaide /HMV Carrick.
The world’s oldest surviving clipper ship – and the oldest ship to have carried migrants toAustralia – is mouldering on a Scottish slipway awaiting refurbishment. The City ofAdelaide, built in England for Adelaide owners in 1864, is regarded by some experts asmore important than the Cutty Sark.The 54 metre, 900 tonne timber and iron ship, which survived the loss of its rudder in 1877 southof Kangaroo Island, is remarkably intact, having been consistently owned and reasonably well looked afterright through until 1978. It sank in Glasgow dock in 1991 and stayed underwater for 13 months, but thestygian Glasgow ooze it sank into was no worse a medium for preservation than the sea air that the peelingpaint is now subjected to at Irvine, on the lower reaches of the Clyde.The City of Adelaide is five years older than the Cutty Sark, which sits in splendour in aGreenwich dock in London, and has reported claim to the fastest passage by a clipper from England toAdelaide, of 64 days. That is faster than anything achieved by the Cutty Sark and only a day over the recordset in 1868 by the Thermopylae, under the legendary captain “Bully” Forbes, between Gravesend and Melbourne.
The UK National Lotter, British Government, Australian Federal Government or South Australian (Adelaide) Government have not chosen to protect this heritage registered significant British ship with strong historical links to Australia and Adelaide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Adelaide_(1864)
2. Australia's oldest warship, a rare 1870's Breastplate Monitor Ship, a semi submersible ancestor of the Battle Ship, HMVS Cerberus served with the Colonial Victorian Navy and later with the RAN, and was scuttled close to shore near Melbourne, plans have existed snice the 1990's to recover her for preservation, however in the early 2000's the hull began to give way under the wieght of the deck and gun turrets. A joint Victorian State Government and Federal Australian Government review continues the trend of fiddling while Rome burns.
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~maav/hmvscerberus.htm
3. One that looks like it may now be saved is the world's oldest surviving Douglas Commercial Airliner, DC-2 A30-11, the former Eastern Airlines NC13736 of Eddie Rickenbacker's famed "Great Silver Fleet", it flew with the RAAF during WW2, and was purchased in the 1980's by the Albury Apex Club, restored as PH-AJU "Uiver" and installed on poles at Alubry Airport to commemorate the incident in the 1934 Centenary Air Race when "Uiver" undertook an emergency landing at night in bad weather at Albury by the aid of the townspeoples car head lights.
Taken down from the poles due to corrosion of engine mounts etc, the Albury Council proposed to house it within a new airport terminal, but baulked at spending rate payer funds on restoring it again at a suggested cost of $200k to $400k. A trust was formed to raise the funds, and failed spectacularly, and instead proposed the aircraft be cut up, with the cockpit, engines and centre-section leading edge being used to create a stunning "sculpture" on the wall of the new terminal with painted 2 dimensional graphics completing the "art work".
(Never mind its own historical status, and the fact that it was stil largely intact, and that a DC-3 Cockpit/centre-section could be mocked up to achieve the same result, or indeed a mockup from industrial materials could be built.)
Luckily the Council recently rejected that Trust's proposal and instead has chosen to seek a museum in Australia to take over ownership and restoration of the aircraft elsewhere while a commemorative sculpture is achieved some other way.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-42691.html
Regards
Mark Pilkington
Large "Transport" exhibits in open air display are always going to be at risk, look at the Vulcans in the UK, either in private hands or some of the smaller museums.
Ships are a particular problem, examples are the Cabot as previously mentioned or current battles are:
1. to stop the National Maritime Museum of Scotland "deconstructing" the oldest surviving "Clipper Ship" a rare 1800's England to Australia sailing ship the former SS Adelaide /HMV Carrick.
The world’s oldest surviving clipper ship – and the oldest ship to have carried migrants toAustralia – is mouldering on a Scottish slipway awaiting refurbishment. The City ofAdelaide, built in England for Adelaide owners in 1864, is regarded by some experts asmore important than the Cutty Sark.The 54 metre, 900 tonne timber and iron ship, which survived the loss of its rudder in 1877 southof Kangaroo Island, is remarkably intact, having been consistently owned and reasonably well looked afterright through until 1978. It sank in Glasgow dock in 1991 and stayed underwater for 13 months, but thestygian Glasgow ooze it sank into was no worse a medium for preservation than the sea air that the peelingpaint is now subjected to at Irvine, on the lower reaches of the Clyde.The City of Adelaide is five years older than the Cutty Sark, which sits in splendour in aGreenwich dock in London, and has reported claim to the fastest passage by a clipper from England toAdelaide, of 64 days. That is faster than anything achieved by the Cutty Sark and only a day over the recordset in 1868 by the Thermopylae, under the legendary captain “Bully” Forbes, between Gravesend and Melbourne.
The UK National Lotter, British Government, Australian Federal Government or South Australian (Adelaide) Government have not chosen to protect this heritage registered significant British ship with strong historical links to Australia and Adelaide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Adelaide_(1864)
2. Australia's oldest warship, a rare 1870's Breastplate Monitor Ship, a semi submersible ancestor of the Battle Ship, HMVS Cerberus served with the Colonial Victorian Navy and later with the RAN, and was scuttled close to shore near Melbourne, plans have existed snice the 1990's to recover her for preservation, however in the early 2000's the hull began to give way under the wieght of the deck and gun turrets. A joint Victorian State Government and Federal Australian Government review continues the trend of fiddling while Rome burns.
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~maav/hmvscerberus.htm
3. One that looks like it may now be saved is the world's oldest surviving Douglas Commercial Airliner, DC-2 A30-11, the former Eastern Airlines NC13736 of Eddie Rickenbacker's famed "Great Silver Fleet", it flew with the RAAF during WW2, and was purchased in the 1980's by the Albury Apex Club, restored as PH-AJU "Uiver" and installed on poles at Alubry Airport to commemorate the incident in the 1934 Centenary Air Race when "Uiver" undertook an emergency landing at night in bad weather at Albury by the aid of the townspeoples car head lights.
Taken down from the poles due to corrosion of engine mounts etc, the Albury Council proposed to house it within a new airport terminal, but baulked at spending rate payer funds on restoring it again at a suggested cost of $200k to $400k. A trust was formed to raise the funds, and failed spectacularly, and instead proposed the aircraft be cut up, with the cockpit, engines and centre-section leading edge being used to create a stunning "sculpture" on the wall of the new terminal with painted 2 dimensional graphics completing the "art work".
(Never mind its own historical status, and the fact that it was stil largely intact, and that a DC-3 Cockpit/centre-section could be mocked up to achieve the same result, or indeed a mockup from industrial materials could be built.)
Luckily the Council recently rejected that Trust's proposal and instead has chosen to seek a museum in Australia to take over ownership and restoration of the aircraft elsewhere while a commemorative sculpture is achieved some other way.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-42691.html
Regards
Mark Pilkington
Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:16 am
PbyCat-Guy wrote:That's what happens when people don't know about Guadacanal, D-Day, the Bismark, U.S.S. Indianapolis, 8th (and other) Air Forces, and Operation Drum Beat, and so many others. It's a fight to keep this history preserved, and seems like it gets harder as time goes by, especialy when historic artifacts are destroyed.
Yes. You are 100% correct.
Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:26 am
Robbie Roberts wrote:The SS US is pretty well gutted at the moment- after she was taken out of service, they stripped her, and sold everything off- down to the painted metal.
There is a group on the internet trying to save her... But I can't find my link for them! If I come across it, I will post it.
Robbie
The S.S. United States has a facinateing history. The fastest ocean liner ever built, she could could go faster in reverse than the Titanic could go forward. He chief designer, William Francis Gibbs, had a life long dream to build the perfect ship, and he realized it when he was given the go-ahead to build the United States. He was obsessed with fire-proofing and as a result, the ship was full of asbestos - right down to the decking. Up until the day he died, he called the ship every day it was at sea. Sadly, the ship sits gutted on the Delaware. It is doubtful that Norwegian Cruise lines will ever do anything with it (there is talk they will scrap her). If they do decide to enter her into cruise service, they would re-model her to the point of completely destroying her historical profile. Of course her fuel gobbling aircraft carrier engines would come out as well...
http://www.ssunitedstates.org/SSUShome.html
Here's a good article on the current condition of the ship with lots of pictures. There is a slide show in the upper right corner of the article...
http://www.planphilly.com/node/1559
Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:13 pm
Incidentaly, there are actually 3 other additional U-boats preserved and on display ...
U-505 at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, IL, USA
http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/
U-995 at the Naval Memorial in Laboe (near Kiel), Germany
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/articles/u995_visits.htm
U-2540 (Wilhelm Bauer) at the Deutches Maritime Museum in Bremerhaven, Germany
http://www.dsm.museum/e3ubor.htm
Plus, there is also a German designed/Finish built submarine, the Vesikko that is considered the prototype for the Kriegsmarine's Type II U-boat displayed at the Military Museum of Finland on the island of Suomenlinna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_submarine_Vesikko
U-505 at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, IL, USA
http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/
U-995 at the Naval Memorial in Laboe (near Kiel), Germany
http://www.uboat.net/gallery/articles/u995_visits.htm
U-2540 (Wilhelm Bauer) at the Deutches Maritime Museum in Bremerhaven, Germany
http://www.dsm.museum/e3ubor.htm
Plus, there is also a German designed/Finish built submarine, the Vesikko that is considered the prototype for the Kriegsmarine's Type II U-boat displayed at the Military Museum of Finland on the island of Suomenlinna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_submarine_Vesikko
Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:40 pm
Hello,
Actually, the U-1 of early World War 1 is in the Deutsches Museum; it is fairly small with an orignal crew of about 15 if memory serves. Also, the conning tower of the sub that sank the Lusitania (the U-20?) is still extant.
However, no one has taken up the original question that I asked - might U 534 also be the ultimate fate of the B-52s, DC-3s and F-89s in outdoor museums scattered throughout the country? People 20-30 years hence may not be able to justify the cost of removing internal rust that has accumulated over the years.
There is also the reason given for why the U-534 had to be cut up - the British handicap accessibility laws are such that the only way access can be provided to the interior is that such access needs to be available to everybody, despite any handicap. So they cut the sub up so anyone - even those in an iron lung - can peer inside. I believe American laws have a "reasonable" cause inserted into them, but that can change or be reinterpreted. What happens when someone in a wheelchair sues because they are not allowed into a cramped aircraft that others can get into? One obvious answer is that such tours will be discontinued.
Kevin,
.
Actually, the U-1 of early World War 1 is in the Deutsches Museum; it is fairly small with an orignal crew of about 15 if memory serves. Also, the conning tower of the sub that sank the Lusitania (the U-20?) is still extant.
However, no one has taken up the original question that I asked - might U 534 also be the ultimate fate of the B-52s, DC-3s and F-89s in outdoor museums scattered throughout the country? People 20-30 years hence may not be able to justify the cost of removing internal rust that has accumulated over the years.
There is also the reason given for why the U-534 had to be cut up - the British handicap accessibility laws are such that the only way access can be provided to the interior is that such access needs to be available to everybody, despite any handicap. So they cut the sub up so anyone - even those in an iron lung - can peer inside. I believe American laws have a "reasonable" cause inserted into them, but that can change or be reinterpreted. What happens when someone in a wheelchair sues because they are not allowed into a cramped aircraft that others can get into? One obvious answer is that such tours will be discontinued.
Kevin,
.
Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:41 am
Hello,
My family and I toured through through a former Royal Australian Navy Oberon Class submarine ( http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/maritime/submarine.asp ) and a major part of the experience was climbing the ladders, feeling the confinement, looking into every nook and cranny and even getting to sit in the Captains chair. The tour guide was actually a WW2 British submarine veteran, so the actual combat stories whilst touring this sub really left an impression.
Chopping one up and making it part of an " Audio-visual" experience, you might as well stay home and watch it on TV.
What a disgrace.
My family and I toured through through a former Royal Australian Navy Oberon Class submarine ( http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/maritime/submarine.asp ) and a major part of the experience was climbing the ladders, feeling the confinement, looking into every nook and cranny and even getting to sit in the Captains chair. The tour guide was actually a WW2 British submarine veteran, so the actual combat stories whilst touring this sub really left an impression.
Chopping one up and making it part of an " Audio-visual" experience, you might as well stay home and watch it on TV.
What a disgrace.
Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:05 am
Downunder wrote:Hello,
My family and I toured through through a former Royal Australian Navy Oberon Class submarine
I had the good fortune to visit an Oberon boat in '76, IIRC back to Britain for refit..Orrr??
H.M.S. Odin(S-10) tied up alongside SS-573 in transit at Pt. Loma. Sweet boats..my boat was 1954 vintage..Odin
was late 50's tech, but launched in '60 or so. ..amazing difference in a few years. Some Oberon's lasted to the '90's and 00's..
Nice silent killer boats...an they got beer too!
573 was de-comm'd only a coupla' years after I left 'er...
Almost as Purdy as Jack Cook's niece...
www.hazegray.org/navhist/rn/submarine/o ... beron1.jpg
Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:08 am
old iron wrote:Hello,
There is also the reason given for why the U-534 had to be cut up - the British handicap accessibility laws are such that the only way access can be provided to the interior is that such access needs to be available to everybody, despite any handicap. So they cut the sub up so anyone - even those in an iron lung - can peer inside. I believe American laws have a "reasonable" cause inserted into them, but that can change or be reinterpreted.
.
So does the British law :
Disability Discrimination Act, 1995 wrote:21. Duty of providers of services to make adjustments
(1) Where a provider of services has a practice, policy or procedure which makes it impossible or unreasonably difficult for disabled persons to make use of a service which he provides, or is prepared to provide, to other members of the public, it is his duty to take such steps as it is reasonable, in all the circumstances of the case, for him to have to take in order to change that practice, policy or procedure so that it no longer has that effect.
(2) Where a physical feature (for example, one arising from the design or construction of a building or the approach or access to premises) makes it impossible or unreasonably difficult for disabled persons to make use of such a service, it is the duty of the provider of that service to take such steps as it is reasonable, in all the circumstances of the case, for him to have to take in order to—
(a) remove the feature;
(b) alter it so that it no longer has that effect;
(c) provide a reasonable means of avoiding the feature; or
(d) provide a reasonable alternative method of making the service in question available to disabled persons.
So there is something other than the law causing this, it may be that grant giving bodies impose more restrictive conditions than the law or that a local authority imposes restrictions as a condition of granting planning consent.
--
Philip Morten
Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:28 am
mustangdriver wrote:PbyCat-Guy wrote:That's what happens when people don't know about Guadacanal, D-Day, the Bismark, U.S.S. Indianapolis, 8th (and other) Air Forces, and Operation Drum Beat, and so many others. It's a fight to keep this history preserved, and seems like it gets harder as time goes by, especialy when historic artifacts are destroyed.
Yes. You are 100% correct.
No. WWII history will never be in any danger of being lost. Whole libraries have been written about each of those topics you mentioned; feature films and TV programs made, monuments erected, etc., etc., etc. It is laughable to think that the history might not be preserved. I dare you to go into any sizable bookstore and not be able to find books that cover all of the things you mentioned.
Crack a book, btw, and you will discover the spellings are Guadalcanal and Bismarck.
When it comes to preservation of artifacts like this, the argument that "history will not be preserved" is a red herring. The real issue is simply whether the hardware will be preserved for those of us who like to look at the hardware. Our attempt to inflate what is at stake into the "preservation of history" does not fool anyone.
There are also those who feel not just that the history of WWII should be preserved in books and other media for whose who are interested, but that it should be kept "top-of-mind" for everyone through the presentation and display of artifacts. Those people are fighting a losing battle against the decreasing relevance of WWII, like any historical event, to contemporary society.
August
Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:46 am
Right but there are also many others that would love to rewrite history. Go check out a Japanese history book. I bet you will learn all kinds of cool stuff from that.
Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:14 am
.
The issue for such large open air exhibits are fairly simple,
1. are they valued enough by society to eventually place under cover?
2. are they valued enough by society to undertake constant re-restoration to overcome the elements?
3. What is their current condition, or state of deterioration?
These questions face the future of any large technology exhibits, from ships, to locomotives and to aircraft.
There are many Vulcans "preserved" in the UK outside, not all of them will make it to 2050.
There are many preserved ships in the world, how many of those will get regular painting etc to avoid hull deterioration.
These large objects will become more cherished and "defendable" as they age, but as they age their problems will multiply and if their upkeep is out of control they will move beyond economic recovery and face certain scrapping.
Not every museum or collection enjoys the dry climate of Pima County, and the ideal outside display conditions those aircraft enjoy, in fact most others suffer high rainfall, which despite the view it "washes" the aircraft, actually assists corrosion by creating a wet dust for "electrolysis" between dis-similiar metals., even worse if there is a coastal breeze exposure to the site.
The UK has organised itself well with the British Aircraft Preservation Council developing a National Aircraft Register that identifies benchmark and significant examples of each type. Such a register will allow individual museums to determine if their example is a priority from a National perspective, and focus on the most significant items in their own collection.
That focus will allow scarce resources to be placed into getting significant airframes undercover, or maintained regularly for further survival outside.
We wont be able to save everything, and not everything is worth saving.
The issue is to put efforts into those that are worth saving, and can be, that will be the challenge for aviation heritage in the future.
regards
Mark Pilkington
The issue for such large open air exhibits are fairly simple,
1. are they valued enough by society to eventually place under cover?
2. are they valued enough by society to undertake constant re-restoration to overcome the elements?
3. What is their current condition, or state of deterioration?
These questions face the future of any large technology exhibits, from ships, to locomotives and to aircraft.
There are many Vulcans "preserved" in the UK outside, not all of them will make it to 2050.
There are many preserved ships in the world, how many of those will get regular painting etc to avoid hull deterioration.
These large objects will become more cherished and "defendable" as they age, but as they age their problems will multiply and if their upkeep is out of control they will move beyond economic recovery and face certain scrapping.
Not every museum or collection enjoys the dry climate of Pima County, and the ideal outside display conditions those aircraft enjoy, in fact most others suffer high rainfall, which despite the view it "washes" the aircraft, actually assists corrosion by creating a wet dust for "electrolysis" between dis-similiar metals., even worse if there is a coastal breeze exposure to the site.
The UK has organised itself well with the British Aircraft Preservation Council developing a National Aircraft Register that identifies benchmark and significant examples of each type. Such a register will allow individual museums to determine if their example is a priority from a National perspective, and focus on the most significant items in their own collection.
That focus will allow scarce resources to be placed into getting significant airframes undercover, or maintained regularly for further survival outside.
We wont be able to save everything, and not everything is worth saving.
The issue is to put efforts into those that are worth saving, and can be, that will be the challenge for aviation heritage in the future.
regards
Mark Pilkington
Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:29 pm
mustangdriver wrote:Right but there are also many others that would love to rewrite history. Go check out a Japanese history book. I bet you will learn all kinds of cool stuff from that.
Preserved U-boats (or airplanes) are of no help in preventing history being rewritten! This is my point, they are mute artifacts, they exist apart from history.
And the U.S. version is plenty distorted also, trust me.
August
Re: ????
Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 pm
Glen wrote:The Olympia is going under the guide lines of what was learned on the USS. TEXAS when back in the early 80's she was in a real bad way. thankfuly they got to her just in time .
They got to Texas just in time to keep her afloat for another 20 years or so. I believe that her condition is now such that the only practical alternative for preserving her is permanent dry-berth.
She's a good example of 1.) sometimes the deterioration goes so far that it's just a matter of slowing down the inevitable and 2.) aging structures of any sort have maintenance and preservation requirements with an upward sloping curve.
On one hand, it's going to be a real shame that people will no longer be able to see her afloat, but there's a number of good things (besides the fact that she will continue to exist) with being able to experience her true bulk and form.