swoose being moved soon

[Jack Cook]

That wasn't directed at the AFM

[mustangdriver]

Thanks

[Matt Gunsch]

You're kidding right. THe NMUSAF has around 400 aircraft on display in the collection at Dayton. To say, it doesn't look good is a bit of a stretch. Just because they moved one aircraft in a manner that you are not a fan of, and do not have all of the details about. The Swoose is already broken up anyway. I think you would be hard pressed to find a place with more B-17 restoration knowledge than the museum. At one level or another this will be the fourth B-17 to be at Dayton for restoration, preservation, and display.

Yes they have that many planes, and the reason most of them are in good shape is because they flew in there. As far as the B-17s, the crew at Dayton has not restored a single B-17, the Belle is their first.
Shoo Shoo Baby was done at Dover, and flown into Dayton, and it does not take much preservation to park a flying plane in a hangar and diconnect the battery. The other B-17 was a drone director and again was flown into the museum. There are alot of other groups with more B-17 restoration experiance, the Az Wing of the CAF set the standard with Sentimental Journey, The restorations of Liberty Bell, Yankee Lady, 909, all were done before the AF museum started on the Belle, not to mention the on going restorations of Desert Rat, Texas Raiders and the B-17G in ILL, and I am sure that they have more experiance than the crew at Dayton when it comes to B-17 restorations.

The AF Museum has done alot of good restorations,ie the Fw-190D9, but they also have done bad in the past, ie the Mosquito, it was a flyable plane when it arrived, but it had some of it's structural members cut to fit a "correct" bombay, because it was as recieved, not the model the USAAF flew.

It just seems that the NASM and the AF musuem should be setting the standards for dealing with museum aircraft, and the AF museum has not been doing as good of a job as they could have.

If any other group or museum would have done the same thing to the Helldiver, they would be getting bashed as well, and they have been, ie the Navy and the Martin Mariner in Lake Washington.

[Nathan]

That wasn't directed at the AFM

B-17D restoration......$3 million.
USAFM entrence fee.....$10.
Booking a hotel room for an airshow.....$90.
Mustangdriver and Jack Cooks insults....PRICELESS!!!


Sorry guys...I had to shed some humor here.

[mustangdriver]

You're kidding right. THe NMUSAF has around 400 aircraft on display in the collection at Dayton. To say, it doesn't look good is a bit of a stretch. Just because they moved one aircraft in a manner that you are not a fan of, and do not have all of the details about. The Swoose is already broken up anyway. I think you would be hard pressed to find a place with more B-17 restoration knowledge than the museum. At one level or another this will be the fourth B-17 to be at Dayton for restoration, preservation, and display.

Yes they have that many planes, and the reason most of them are in good shape is because they flew in there. As far as the B-17s, the crew at Dayton has not restored a single B-17, the Belle is their first.
Shoo Shoo Baby was done at Dover, and flown into Dayton, and it does not take much preservation to park a flying plane in a hangar and diconnect the battery. The other B-17 was a drone director and again was flown into the museum. There are alot of other groups with more B-17 restoration experiance, the Az Wing of the CAF set the standard with Sentimental Journey, The restorations of Liberty Bell, Yankee Lady, 909, all were done before the AF museum started on the Belle, not to mention the on going restorations of Desert Rat, Texas Raiders and the B-17G in ILL, and I am sure that they have more experiance than the crew at Dayton when it comes to B-17 restorations.

The AF Museum has done alot of good restorations,ie the Fw-190D9, but they also have done bad in the past, ie the Mosquito, it was a flyable plane when it arrived, but it had some of it's structural members cut to fit a "correct" bombay, because it was as recieved, not the model the USAAF flew.

It just seems that the NASM and the AF musuem should be setting the standards for dealing with museum aircraft, and the AF museum has not been doing as good of a job as they could have.

If any other group or museum would have done the same thing to the Helldiver, they would be getting bashed as well, and they have been, ie the Navy and the Martin Mariner in Lake Washington.

many of the aircraft did fly in, but most had to hit the restoration shop before being put on display. The PBY comes to mind. She was flown in, but needed a ton of work before going on display. Shoo Shoo Baby flew to the museum. Since it has been at Dayton more and more equipment has been added. Just because the aircraft is there on display doesn't mean that there is not more work being done on the aircraft. The P-61 also comes to mind.

My point in getting pissed off here is that once again some people have no problem talking crap on what some on here really enjoy. I have respect for all involved in the Helldiver restoration. I will not go on an open forum and discuss the details of what went on. I have no issues with calling something the way it is. I think it was a dumb way to transport the Helldiver on the firewall. But it gets old, when some one posts something about a whole different aircraft, one that is in pretty rough shape, and some one says, "Oh it doesn't look good."There are alot of managers here it seems. Everyone wants to jump on everyone when something bad takes place, but when good is done, you hear nothing. The other parts that are being yelled about here is where the issue come into play.

[Jack Cook]

I have respect for all involved in the Helldiver restoration. I will not go on an open forum and discuss the details of what went on. I have no issues with calling something the way it is. I think it was a dumb way to transport the Helldiver on the firewall. The other parts that are being yelled about here is where the issue come into play.

#1 who's yelling
#2 you have respect for what Mike did but at the same time are implying he's being dishonest.
#3 dumb way ? how about stupid! 2 tons of a/c bouncing on the firewall all the way to Dayton after cutting all the longerons in half.
#4 I think all the I've got a secret stuff is
#5 I think Mike was very clear and upfront about what happened and pictures don't lie.

[mustangdriver]

Mike was not dishonest at all. I have a great deal of respect for him, and never said otherwise. It is not a matter of being dishonest at all jack. You have been yellling about the longerons since day one. Dumb, stupid, whatever. I am honest enough to say that the correct procedures were not followed. But to keep on it anytime the museum is mentioned in another thread about a complete different airframe gets old. I never said it was a secret, but I am not about to go out here and say what I have to say. It's not the place for that. He see Jack I have respect for others feelings unlike alot here.

Also Jack, I really don't give a s#*t what you think. I know enough to know that if you believe something, you just go ahead an assume that it is law. And have no problem telling others they are stupid for their own beliefs.

Last edited by mustangdriver on Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[rwdfresno]

Chris,

I understand your frustrated with the situation however the difference between the National Collections and private collections is that as part of the federal budget and to a degree the government they answer to us, all of us, the people of these United States. Just because I complain about taxes, or illegal aliens it doesn't mean that I'm an America basher. Same goes for the NMUSAF. It is my favorite aviation museum as far as content, but when something is wrong, it's wrong. The transportation of that Helldiver was just plain wrong. Now if it was a private individual it is their own business how the treat their own property but when it comes to someone who answers to me I have the right to inquire, and be critical.

I also don't think it is inappropriate to have concerns about the transportation of a national treasure when as recently as a month some critical errors were made in the transportation of another. This aircraft will be bigger, heavier, and more difficult to transport. For all we know they will l be sending 18 year old airmen to box this up and ship it. I don't know because there has been no response from the NMUSAF about what has happened.

[mustangdriver]

And I agree with you 100%. I sent an e-mail to the msueum. When I came on here ans asked for some comments on how it could have been done right, all i got were smart ass remarks. Well if you can't give good suggestions then don't complain. I am trying to help fix the problem.

[Jack Cook]

Also Jack, I really don't give a s#*t what you think.

Finally something wee agree on

HonestlyChris,
It you could put some meat behind all you cheerleading you might get somewhere faster.

While I would not have done some of the steps that the team used in the Helldiver restoration, it was not hacked apart either

what part of mike's restoration are you questioning or are you referring to the derestoration?

Some would like you to believe that they went out and chain sawed it apart

I said that and was exaggerating but like Eric D. said what does it matter what they used to cut the longerons.

[Matt Gunsch]

And I agree with you 100%. I sent an e-mail to the msueum. When I came on here ans asked for some comments on how it could have been done right, all i got were smart ass remarks. Well if you can't give good suggestions then don't complain. I am trying to help fix the problem.

It is very simple how it could have been done right, and it never should have had to be asked, and that was to follow Mike's instructions, nuff said.
Other museums have moved much larger aircraft and did not have to cut them up to do it.The Spruce Goose and Pima B-36, come to mind. As far as the Swoose being broken up, it is not, it is dissassembled and on storage frames, and as near as I can tell by looking at photos in the past, nothing was cut.
I have been to the AF museum and it is a impressive place and a one of a kind collection, but when they screw up like they did, they deserve to get slapped for it.

[mustangdriver]

Correct matt I agree, but it is just over and over and over again. It never stops here. Museums make mistakes, it is jsut that some are allowed to move on, while others are forced to hear about it everyday.

[RyanShort1]

Hey guys, I'm no moderator, but can I suggest that we all take a deep breath and agree to a week's moratorium on the USAFM issue? Then if you really still have to revisit it, go at it!
I'm as guilty as the rest, but maybe we don't know all of the facts... let's take Mike's gracious response as good enough for now.

Ryan

[gary1954]

Mustangdriver, I think this boils down to accountablility. Were Mike's instructions followed? judging by the photographs, apparently not, and someone "needs" to be called on the carpet for it, and try to come up with a solution that instructions on disassembly/assembly be followed to the letter to minimize damage to the treasure. Now, bouncing a heavy aircraft like this one on it's firewall on a lowboy, we all agree is downright ig-norrant, and someones got some splaining to do, even if it goes all the way to the HMFIC, and if it is determined that he gave the instructions to disregard Mike's instructions, then the HMFIC needs to go, fired Hasta-la-vistia baby, as he is a threat to the collection. I am done now. have a nice day also, is Mike still owed some dough??

[APG85]

Swoose is disassembled to a point that a C-5 crew should have no problem loading and delivering it to Dayton as is without breaking it down further (if thats how they choose to transport it). Memphis Belle was sent to Dayton without any "cutting or hacking" of components so I don't understand what the sudden concern is.
Museums/people aren't perfect and mistakes are made. Lets not forget that the Smithsonian let the National Air Collection basically rot in a forest for a couple of decades before building the butler buildings at Garber to store them. The Betty bomber was cut up and only the nose section was saved. Unfortunately, lessons are still being learned...