Extremely rare warbirds flying today

[jamesintucson]

I am a firm believer in warbirds being maintained in flying condition, but I believe that some of the exceedingly rare types should be flown like the POF Zero... very limited hours and heavily monitored/ maintained. That said, I cannot wait to see the Mid Atlantic Air Museum P-61 fly, not to mention the Fighter Collection's Gladiator and Beaufighter. Accidents happen, and that is an inevitable fact. The Mossie crash in '96 is a good example. The fact that it is gone will never remove the memories from people's minds who saw it fly...or those like me who only saw it fly on video.

No offence and don't think I'm just focusing on you but this comment struck a chord. If memories and video are enough for someone who never saw the one lost in '96 why aren't the films and memories from World War II enough for all of us who weren't there? Wouldn't it be better to have a lovingly preserved Mosquito in a museum that at least people have the chance to go to see along with the videos and recorded memories of the people who saw and did the real thing, instead of a destroyed aircraft that nobody will ever see again and videos of some airshow. Are we trying to remember what people went through in that war or do we just want to watch cool machines zip past and listen to some lame announcer try to whip up fake sentiment over "The Veterans."

Far be it from me to tell someone what to do with the things they own but maybe we should all examine our motives for wanting to see truly rare types fly.

James

[O.P.]

I just want to see it/them fly. That is the only motive. Any other motives would be,

I want to fly it.
And
If I can't, I want to see it fly some more.

I am not being flippant. It's a freakin airplane. That's it.

And yeah, historical rides (SOSL, Enola Gay, Ect) should be "Stored". But the rest, fly them if it is possible.

As far as GG is concerned, It would be my guess that the only original things on that airplane don't go much farther than the ciggarette ligter and the control wheel emblem. It's not sacred, it's an airplane. My only second hand never worked on it regret about that plane is, is that they didn't make permanent jigs, and forms, and that other stuff so they could of made a couple three more of them at the same time.

I don't know what exactly what other folks think, but none, and I mean exactly NONE of these planes are original, stock, or what ever other word you want to apply to it would be. It aint a 70 Boss Mustang with all matching numbers. I don't think there is any plane over 15 years old that is that way.

I get the impression that a few folks around here expect that some times, or a lot of the time. It ain't happening, and it never has happened.

As far as only example existing, that is for a short period. The Oscars, 190's, D-9, 262's. ect, mean that argument is going to be BS in the near future. It's only a matter of time before we see dataplate restorations of whatever you want in the near future. If you discount that, you'll have have to chunk out a large number of warbirds flying now. I am not saying it is easy, I am just saying it is getting easier every year to do that. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be doing that.


Oh well, Got to study now. I am going to be one of the guys who are doing that stuff in five years. Gotta get with the program.

[6trn4brn]

Howdy O P...the kicker insofar as original aircraft would certainly have to be Flak Bait. From what I have seen of her and what others say, she is pretty well a time machine. Totally unrestored as she was when she came back from the European Theatre. IIRC, someone here said that the plan is to put her back together soon and put her on display as-is. Personally, I get a strange feeling inside everytime I am up close to her, can't splain it other than it is so nice to see her, warts and all.

On the other hand, when ya go and see planes like Enola Gay, Shoo Shoo Baby and Strawberry Bitch, knowing that they are combat veterans at heart, it seems such a shame for them to be all shiny and gussied up. Takes away from their spirit of being a war-horse I think. With the plan to make Memphis Belle all shiny and glossy, I totally agree that it will take a lot away from her essence and she will be just another shiny display aircraft with very little spirit left in her from her glory days.

So then, along those lines of originality, I think it is wonderful that the fellas are working diligently to put the Black Widow P-61 back in the air. She will certainly be a shell of her original self, but it will be spectacular to see a P-61 flying! I hope, as someone here mentioned, that they save the jigs and tooling they have had to make, "just in case".

My two and a half cents worth

[mustangdriver]

I still don't see how restoring an aircraft to mint condition is taking it's soul away in the case of the aircraft you have provided as examples. Enola Gay and Memphis Belle required full restorations for structural reasons. There was no original paint from the Belle's WWII service left on it. Once restored it will be the finest restored B-17 in existence, and the one with the most combat history. The Flack Bait and P-38 at the NASM are indeed time capsule aircraft, and should be preserved that way. But that is able to be done with those two cases. The Belle was not that way. That is the difference between a candidate for restoration and one for preservation. Just about all of the Belle is going to be original as possible. But it had to be restored to ensure it's future. Restoring an aircraft is not a disgrace if it is not like the few time capsule aircraft mentioned.

[gary1954]

I have read the previous posts, and see both sides...With regard to Glacier Girl, I suppose the Icon status give is the fact that this is a "low time" airframe in her original configuration, from what I have read about the plane. I've never seen her. The P-61 being rebuilt...Awesome. FiFi coming back to the flight line...well what can you say...and a High Five just doesn't say enough to the people bring her back to life. And even though I thought I'd never see an ME262 in the air....look what happened. if someone can jig a 262, then someone can jig a Mossie won't be a "warbird" but a carbon copy, which is just as good...I'll shut up now.

[Gunfighter-05]

Here, this one is all banged up.


You WWII guys argue too much, I'll be over at the Modern Flight Gallery checking out the Thud with Robin Olds if you need me....

[mustangdriver]

I have read the previous posts, and see both sides...With regard to Glacier Girl, I suppose the Icon status give is the fact that this is a "low time" airframe in her original configuration, from what I have read about the plane. I've never seen her. The P-61 being rebuilt...Awesome. FiFi coming back to the flight line...well what can you say...and a High Five just doesn't say enough to the people bring her back to life. And even though I thought I'd never see an ME262 in the air....look what happened. if someone can jig a 262, then someone can jig a Mossie won't be a "warbird" but a carbon copy, which is just as good...I'll shut up now.

So we are spanning the views from if it doesn't have the original paint that it sucks, to it's the same to just build a whole new one? Wow!

[mustangdriver]

Here, this one is all banged up.


You WWII guys argue too much, I'll be over at the Modern Flight Gallery checking out the Thud with Robin Olds if you need me....

That my friend is priceless.

[6trn4brn]

I knew I would get your dander up over my comments mustangdriver

My feeling is that restoring/recreating/replacing what was once an original part of any combat veteran aircraft is taking away from her spirit. I saw the Belle when she was on Mud Island and think it was a total disgrace that the city of Memphis would not do more to protect her and am GLAD that the NMUSAF took her away and are now able to give her the loving care that she needs so desperately! At the same time, when I last saw Mr Tallichet's Belle at Dayton last year, she dripped oil, her paint was chipped and just exuded an air of a war-weary combat vet. I thought she looked marvelous

I fully understand that a museum has to do what they must to preserve and present an aircraft in a way that is most acceptable to the general public. For the NASM to put Flak Bait and the P-38 on display as-is is my personal liking! I also understand fully that there is not much at all left original to the Belle, Shoo Baby and Strawberry Bitch. OK? I understand that. I got it. My personal liking is that I find it much more interesting to see an aircraft looking war-weary. Makes me wanna give them a big hug or some danged thing

Now, when are you and I gonna get together so that we can really duke this out??? Remember, you said you were gonna buy the beer!

Peace Dude

[mustangdriver]

Ha HA you know it man, beers at Frickers. ha Ha. I know what you mean,. I have a mix feeling. I say that if they can be displayed in real wear and tear, then go for it. But if it is not cmbat damage, or real war time weathering to just go ahead and shine it up. We are all good though man.

[T J Johansen]

Wouldn't it be better to have a lovingly preserved Mosquito in a museum that at least people have the chance to go to see along with the videos and recorded memories of the people who saw and did the real thing, instead of a destroyed aircraft that nobody will ever see again and videos of some airshow.

If the museum should happen to burn to the ground (taking the lovingly preserved Mosquito with it) we're once again stuck with the photos, videos, and recorded memories.

Are we trying to remember what people went through in that war or do we just want to watch cool machines zip past and listen to some lame announcer try to whip up fake sentiment over "The Veterans."

And what better way to experience that than by seeing the a/c fly. Videos will never let you sense the real sound, smell, and feeling of these a/c. Static a/c are just that, static...

T J

[B-25 C]

All Aircraft were built to fly. Let them continue. Thanks to Eaa and The Collins Foundation I would never had the experience to fly in a war bird. The Sound and feelings experienced will last me a life time. I am all for museums. They have there place for the ones that are not flyable. To me all war birds are special and rare, as all could have been scraped and we would only have pic. and memory's.

[John Cotter]

My opinion is the only loss that you can't recover from is a loss of life.

Bent metal, broken wood, smashed glass can be fixed. All it takes is money. We can replicate and duplicate most anything but a living life.

I respect the museums that statically display the heritage of flight as well as those that fly overhesd.

Kenn

Indeed, completely understood, but my intent was strictly for the loss of the aircraft. We'll understand here with this thread that the aircraft is the only concern for converstaion only.

I have to keep Glacier Girl as an example. how would we truely feel if Glacier Girl was lost? Would we debate why she was flying at all? She truely is a treasure. A one of a kind. She could never be replaced. Agreed?

Using your example, GG was lost to the world. It was recovered to be restored to flying status and be shared with the world. I think we should keep all of them flying. I think some in museums need to be pulled out, restored and flown again. (But I like flying them.. )

[mustangdriver]

[
[/quote]If the museum should happen to burn to the ground (taking the lovingly preserved Mosquito with it) we're once again stuck with the photos, videos, and recorded memories.

[quote="jamesintucson"]

Because this happens all the time? Sure in history it has taken place, but let's face it more warbirds are lost in accidents while flying then in disasters in the ground. There needs to be a balance. Those who say that they all should be static or all should be flying are both equally wrong. I hate to bring it up, but let's talk about an aircraft mentioned here in this thread. The B-26 Carolyn. How much are my kids and grand kids going to learn from this aircraft? Nothing. Because it is no longer here. Now how much can they and will they learn from Shootin' In, Flack bait? You have to understand that if a crash occurs, there is a loss in the education that the aircraft would provide. It is our respnsibliity to preserve these aircraft. It might not always be the most fun way of doing it.

[CAPFlyer]

Yes but Carolyn, just like many of these other so-called "rare" warbirds do have others of the type still existant, just not flying. Cavanaugh stopped flying his Casa 111 after the CAF one crashed. Why? Because his Casa is the only one left in the US flying or static. So he chose not to risk it. The POF Zero is flying a very limited program becuase it's the last one with the original engine installed and they don't want to use its little remaining life up too fast. Yes, there's a balance but here's the difference between the two -

A flying plane can come to the students. Students have to come to the static plane. If they were all static, how many fewer students would be able to learn from them? Not everyone can afford to go to Dayton, Jacksonville, Washington (DC and State), etc, to see the major museums. Thus, the flying examples serve an important purpose - to bring the museum to the people wherever they are so those who can't afford the trip across the country get a chance to see some of the stuff that's in them.