Warbird Information Exchange

At the point of almost contact with the ground, wouldn't you pull the flaps up to save them? Seems a waste for the flaps to get smashed after helping you flare for the arrival. Vlado and the other Mustang drivers on this board, any thoughts to this please??

TIA,

Lynn

Just a WAG, but flaps cost less the repair than wings

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Landing on the grass could snag a prop blade and cause a broken nose case. Worse would be digging in the dirt and flipping. Skidding on the concrete might only grind down parts. Hard to second guess the texture of the dirt. Glad it came out basically well.
As an example from another incident, Tom Wood inadvertantly skidded on the runway, and yet flew away a few weeks later with a replaced prop. He did replace the motor and repair the flaps & skins once at home base.
VL

Lots of foams out there!

http://www.kidde-fire.com/utcfs/Templates/Pages/Template-50/0,8061,pageId%3D3497%26siteId%3D465,00.html

I know that some of these foams will absolutely kill a jet engine and result in an immediate overhaul being required after the use of foam on a tailpipe fire that otherwise would not hurt the engine.

Book says "Use about 30 deg. of flaps until just before landing. Then, when you're sure you have your landing area well in hand, use full flaps"

Robbie

Flaps sure add a lot of drag and will help with deceleration.

Try putting your hand out of a car window or open cockpit while driving/ flying at 100+ MPH with your palm facing into the wind. It feels like your arm is going to snap against the strain.

Then imagine the forces on a couple of barn doors, like a set of flaps, at those speeds and you will see that the aerodynamic braking is very effective. Having the flaps down will certainly reduce the landing roll...or grind...as the case may be.

Looks like he did a great job of getting her down with minimal damage.

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On our Hawker 700, we go to lift dump when the main touched which do the same. I was thinking it would save down time by having not to repair them..

Thanks,

Lynn

I have never tried a no flap landing in a P-51, nor have I ever ridden in one while it was being done. Perhaps, Vlado or someone with lots of experience might try it or be able to do it. But remember if you are coming in wheels up, especially with a passenger, it is an emergency. I don't think I would really want to make a big change in the lift/drag of the wing just as I was about to touch down. If you stall it the nose may drop and dig in. I also would not want to look down in the cockpit for the flap handle when just about to touch down. A Bob Hoover might be able to fly a couple of knots fast in ground effect long enough to just dump part flaps, but I don't think I'd try it. I have seen an inadvertent gear up landing of a 51 on asphalt and it did a lot of damage, $$ wise , but was very smooth and never even left the runway. Many have also been done on dirt or grass ok. I have landed the Spitfire once with gear down but no flaps or brakes due due to a blown air connection. It is a little touchy, and I think it you came in with zero flaps on a 51, it would be hard to slow down.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

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Don't touch my junk!!

VH-BOB is currently based at RAAF Williams, Point Cook airfield, where it touched down.

IIRC, Point Cook is an all over grass field with additional hard runways. It looks from the video that they chose to land on one of the grass runways.

I understand (and may be wrong) that undercarriage retraction problems created the need for the landing. I'm not sure the gear was fully up and locked, which may be why the grass was chosen. (NB: This is secondhand info.)

I'm no pilot, or qualified, but the first requirement was, as ever, to get the aircraft down with the pilot and passenger safe, minimising damage being a secondary objective and one not to compromise the first.

I'll share any official info if I get it. In the meantime, I hope BOB's team haven't got too much to do and can get it done as quickly as possible. They've been sharing the Mustang experience for a long time now, let's hope they get back to offering pleasure flights ASAP.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Probably fewer sparks/friction/heat sliding on the grass as well. The POF O-47 was lost to a fire after a wheels up landing on a hard surfaced runway. Might not have happened on grass. Luckily, the fire grew slowly enough that everyone got out uninjured and watched it burn until the fire truck showed up some time later.

I'm no expert, but the majority of the advice against landing on grass seems to assume modern airfields without grass runways.

Point Cook has all field hazards marked out, so there's no major dips, trenches or fixtures to catch you out. I don't think the grass and earth are much 'softer' than concrete at the moment either. There's not been much rain lately.

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

For the 'save the flaps' line of thought, things are happening too fast to grab the flap handle at the right time to pull them up to save them. Also, with the flaps down, it saves the airlerons/wing tips from the scrape damage. Trading one problem for another sometimes.

Since VH-BOB was landing on a maintained grass runway, he was familiar and confident of the smoothness of the surface, having no bumps-divits-trenches-etc.

I'd be curious how the radiator/belly managed in this incident. Thx.
VL

For the 'save the flaps' line of thought, things are happening too fast to grab the flap handle at the right time to pull them up to save them. Also, with the flaps down, it saves the airlerons/wing tips from the scrape damage. Trading one problem for another sometimes.

Since VH-BOB was landing on a maintained grass runway, he was familiar and confident of the smoothness of the surface, having no bumps-divits-trenches-etc.

I'd be curious how the radiator/belly managed in this incident. Thx.
VL

I've always been taught that pavement is preferable to grass. The concern with grass is that sometimes stones , rocks or even gravels can really tear at the underside skin. So it is always best to take the runway, or even the taxiway.
At that airport, my guess is that the paved runways are much longer than the grass runways. More runway length means he could have maybe slipped the mixture to idle cut off and lessened damage to engine and propellor components.
I believe the thought behind more flaps as opposed to less or no flaps, is that in a no flap landing you have a higher stall speed and the nose stalls in a higher nose up position relative to level flight. In other words , higher impact speed, trickier, and increased chance of dropping the airplane in and doing more structural damage.