Warbird examples that no longer exist

[Elroy13]

Does anyone have a Martin Baltimore 187 or Maryland 167??

Yes, it is true that there are no "Betty's" that are complete in any way. It's too bad that the allies didn't save the betty's used in the surrender with the green crosses. At least one should have been saved. Any idea what happened to them?

Last edited by Hellcat on Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[daveymac82c]

Blackburn Shark

Ok, so there is wreckage of one still in existence, but it is stored away.

-David

[Joe Scheil]

The thread said what Significant types.

The only type that has been posted that was actually significant and correctly extinct is the Martin Maryland, Baltimore 167/187.

[Mike]

The thread said what Significant types.

The only type that has been posted that was actually significant and correctly extinct is the Martin Maryland, Baltimore 167/187.

Joe,

A rather large number of Bomber Command veterans would take issue with you over your dismissal of the Stirling and Whitley as 'insignificant'.

[Joe Scheil]

Significant types that do not exist...partial list...

And having them is nothing without displaying them in context...

Martin MB-2

Boeing B-9, XB-15 and of course the C-98.

Ki-44 Shoki...well thats a stretch

There are Betty components and several chunks on display, perhaps none better than Planes of Fame's Betty on display. However there are no Nell's and that friends was a true record breaker and also a deadly sword of 1942. The Mitsubishi/Nakajima G3M1 Naval Bomber is like the A5M, super significant types that encouraged a nation's expansion but were not built upon with the same innovation.

Ju-86P?

Fw-56

TBD

The thread said what Significant types.

The only type that has been posted that was actually significant and correctly extinct is the Martin Maryland, Baltimore 167/187.

I'd still have to say the:

1. TBD
2. Short Sterling
3. Val
4. Betty
5. Kate

Stand out above all the rest. We're talking COMPLETE restorations, or close to restorations of these aircraft. NONE exist in a restored state. And the above aircraft are VERY significant aircraft in the big picture of WWII.

I'm very surprised that the Navy folks have no example of the TBD. I'm well aware of the TBD's that are under water in various locations. Who knows, maybe soon we will see an example of a fully restored TBD. This ship is a very important piece of Naval aviation history.

[old iron]

Hello all,

Speaking just for types used operationally during WWII:

Any German multiple engine seaplane (except Do.24, of which I believe all surviving examples saw Spanish rather than German use).
Any part of the Dornier Do.17 family (incl. Do.17, 217, etc)

For American, to my mind the least well known American type that saw operational and combat use in WWII - and for which there is no survivors - is the Curtiss SOC Seagull.

Perhaps half of all Japanese basic types that saw operational use/combat now have no intact survivors. These include the "Claude" and "Tojo" fighters, "Helen" and many other bombers and every seaplane except "Rex" and "Emily".

The Polish and the Dutch had a number of indigenous designs, most of which do not survive. For the French, most of their fighter designs have at least one survivor, but few of the bomber and perhaps none of the short distance observation and Naval types survive.

Kevin
.

[O.P.]

SC2 Seahawk

I don't know how significant, thats up for debate, but there were over 400 SC1's and SC2's made, and they did serve in the fleet.

SC2 with me, is kinda like the TBD with others. Why does this plane not exist?

[Tom Moungovan]

Hello all,

Speaking just for types used operationally during WWII:

Any German multiple engine seaplane (except Do.24, of which I believe all surviving examples saw Spanish rather than German use).
Any part of the Dornier Do.17 family (incl. Do.17, 217, etc)

For American, to my mind the least well known American type that saw operational and combat use in WWII - and for which there is no survivors - is the Curtiss SOC Seagull.

Perhaps half of all Japanese basic types that saw operational use/combat now have no intact survivors. These include the "Claude" and "Tojo" fighters, "Helen" and many other bombers and every seaplane except "Rex" and "Emily".

The Polish and the Dutch had a number of indigenous designs, most of which do not survive. For the French, most of their fighter designs have at least one survivor, but few of the bomber and perhaps none of the short distance observation and Naval types survive.

Kevin
.

As to Japanese seaplanes, there is a submerged Kawanishi "Mavis" that was sunk by the allies on or about August 7th, 1942 at the seaplane base of Gavutu, near Tulagi and across the Channel from Guadalcanal. She lies in 20-30 feet of clear water right off the shore of the islet (Gavutu is only about 1 km long, but was the scene of fierce fighting for a few days).
I did photograph her shape in the water & will try to post it here when I have access to a scanner.
Trust I have the model correct, a 4 engine flying boat.

[coldaffyduck]

What about these:

Focke-Wulf FW 200 "Condor"
Savoia-Marchetti S.M.79
Junkers Ju290
Henschel Hs129

[Matt Gunsch]

The thread said what Significant types.

The only type that has been posted that was actually significant and correctly extinct is the Martin Maryland, Baltimore 167/187.

Joe,
check your facts, the B-32 fought the last air battles in WWII and suffered the last casulties. I think that qualifies.

[k5083]

Yes, it is true that there are no "Betty's" that are complete in any way. It's too bad that the allies didn't save the betty's used in the surrender with the green crosses. At least one should have been saved. Any idea what happened to them?

The Smithsonian had a complete one at one point. But in the early days, late 1950s I think, when there was very little public interest and congressional funding in support of their efforts at aircraft preservation, they had to make some hard choices, and there was no place to put the whole Betty. So they chopped off the nose, and some other parts I believe, which they still have, and the rest was scrapped. Unfortunate, but it goes to show what a shoestring they worked on in those days.

August

[Joe Scheil]

The Stirling is extinct, the Whitley I thought had one example recovered. I forgot about the Stirling, but feel free to add it to the list. As an aside I could care less about whoever you think would be cheesed that what I omitted is an insult. I'm not composing this list to be honorable to any group, just accountable to aviation history. There is a distinction.

The Stirling did form a part of Bomber Command during WWII, but as an aircraft had poor performance compared with the Halifax and the awesome Lancaster. The Lancaster is significant due to its record, technological acheivements, and its offspring. The Aircraft spawned planes that defended the British Isles for generations. The Stirling was not that advanced an aircraft comparitively, and preservation should if compiling an extinct aircraft wish list switch to the similar Short "C" class flying boat. If a Stirling is found, great, then preservation should be attempted. There are however plenty of other types, like the battleship scouts, that are significant to aviation as a kind of aircraft no longer used, versus a type to make a complete set.

The aircraft and engines that were consumed by the production machine of WWII aircraft production that are missing today are the biggest omission we have. 1925-1935 types from all powers, even British make the leap from WWI to WWII hard to bridge with remaining examples of definitive types...

[Mike]

What about these:

Focke-Wulf FW 200 "Condor"
Savoia-Marchetti S.M.79
Junkers Ju290
Henschel Hs129

There's a Condor under restoration for the Berlin Technical Museum, and two complete SM.79s plus a fuselage survive in Italian collections.