Warbird Information Exchange

Hi David,
Looks like you might be busy! Exciting ideas. I saw both Cats when passing through in 2002. They needed good homes. Some thoughts...

Can you get a photo of the rather special jacket in the terminal for the WIXers?

Without a proper, qualified survey, that's a BIG assumption. Any rot in the wing spar, or the lower hull (all too common in 'boats) makes it cost more to rebuild than it would ever be worth. And rot in both places can be well advanced before the paint admits it.


Yeah. There's a reason few active Cats have the nose turret. But one step at a time.

You know, that's a really smart idea.

If you can pull the stuff together, you could put together a proposal which could pull that off, with federal funding. There was something called (IIRC) 'the Art Train' taking an art gallery in railway carriages across the USA. I could see a viable proposition of 'The Flying Museum' snagging good funding, private sponsorship etc as an educational touring museum / show. Start asking around to find out who could help you co-ordinate a bid for that, and your logo is a key seed to start that. There is funding and donors for that kind of idea in Canada, and while following in QCA Spillsby territory's cool, why not consider tours across remote Canada as well?

Good luck, make it happen!

Where there Strannies there?

Cheers

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Hey James,

You're right about both planes needing good homes. One of them already has a good home, and hopefully the second one will get a good home soon too.

Regarding the rather special jacket in the Nanaimo Airport Terminal, well... I'm not over there too often, but I know there are some WIX'ers on Vancouver Island that might be able to snap some shots for us.

Seeing as how we haven't got a good idea of what the plane's worth, it would be our intention to send an AME to inspect the entire airplane to survey damage, corrosion, and of course to appraise it as is. I imagine the hull, besides the ding, is in good condition, I hope. Of course a thorough inspection with let us know for sure.

Yeah, about the nose turret issue, I've heard all sorts of reasons for having the nose turrets removed.

Now, with regards to the "really smart idea" as you put it. I sort of came up with the idea early on when I thought about how most people would not be interested in paying for me to fly around in a Warbird for fun. They'd much rather donate their money towards curing diseases, feeding the hungry, and educating children. I figured the only way I could get funding to operate a Canso would be by conbining its operation with something people care about. It seems, to the general public warbirds are interesting, but not vital to society. if they could donate money to only one cause it would be something more important like saving lives, and not towards preserving history. Museums tend to get the short end of the stick when it comes to philanthopy.

That's what motivated me to created the "Flying School Bus" idea. I would want to operate it, like I said, along the BC Coast and bring educational programs to the small towns. I would want to bring more than just history presenations. I'd like to try and incorporate the Vancouver Aquarium, the H.R. McMillan Planetarium, the Royal BC Museum, Science World, etc. These are all places that school children from up the coast may never get to see, especially when such an experience could really excite them about a given school subject.

I made up a little logo from scratch (yes I know I forgot the main gear):



I also created a powerpoint presentation for the project and included some very rough numbers provided by Plane Sailing of Duxford pertaining to the restorations costs, and operational costs.
Dave Legg, please correct me if there's another name your group prefers to go by.

Due to other important projects at the CMF, this project had been put on the backburner, but due to its impending sale out of Country it has become more of a priority. But, since our number one priority at the CMF is raising money to build a new facility, this project cannot detract from other fundraising.

So there, you go. More info will be shared as it becomes available.

Cheers,

David

Yo...

IF the Canadian Museum of Flight cannot deal with this one please let me know!!!!

We are considering a Canso and this one would be a great acqusition for our museum and we have a direct history with the type (165 Sqn operated out of our hangar) in Edmonton.

We may have access to the $$$ to do something.

Tom H

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Alberta Aviation Museum
Edmonton Aviation Heritage Society

Hi David,
Thanks for the update. I can't see any flaws there, and a lot of good ideas. With a lump of cash, you could have a goer!

I'm sure the PBY/Cat/Canso guys will agree that the purchase cost is often the cheaper end of the operating game, but no matter.



That's important, of course. What I'd suggest is setting up an independant trust or organisation to get the 'Canso Project' off the ground, but allied with CMF. That way you can have teams dedicated to both major ideas (sometimes including the same people) but no fighting over funding or priorities, as they are separate streams.

For instance I'm helping a team (Project2014) building a replica Bristol Boxkite for the RAF Museum. They decided it would only happen if the did it, and undertook fund-raising for it, themselves - whereas if it was under the Museum's official umbrella there would be all sorts of un-necessary brakes on progress. Once it's built, they donate a finished, flyable Boxkite to the museum. This also enabled them to do private fundrasing for the project, which has been very successful (lots of corporate donations, no state funding, and all got rolling by one key individual in a business becoming the lead donor.

(Website: http://www.boxkite2014.org Donors: http://www.boxkite2014.org/sponsors/sponsors.htm )

I'd advise setting something up, endorsed, but not owned by CMF. Then look for private donors - one big one gets you going, and others will follow in. Then you can approach the BC Museums etc, for support, and they won't a) run away, b) try to 'own' the project, and c) won't throttle you with red tape. You can then look for local, BC and maybe national support.
Play the 'no-one in Ottawa-loves-BC' card. Don't talk to the museums first; they won't be able to handle what you want, will tie up insufficient (if any) cash with excess conditions and little understanding of operating a vintage aircraft.

If we can get Qantas Defence Systems on board, then you (with a much larger aviation industry with deeper roots) should be able to get support from one of those organisations. Think factory locations, corporate history, businesses needing good BC / local / national PR.

How about looking to fly it across Canada? If CD Howe can do it, and a guy with one leg can run across the place it can't be that hard. Seriously though, what a cool way of highlighting the importance of aviation in Canada's history; linking up all the West to East Canadian aviation museums, and taking those museums to their remoter communities.

Play down the 'paying for me to fly around in a Warbird for fun' and play up the 'taking Canadian history, heritage and culture to communities without access' card heavily. Ignore the 'warbird' name, and go with 'products of Canadian industry'; 'opening up Canada with aviation'; 'Defending Canadian liberty in W.W.II' etc.

If this deal doesn't work, finding a Cat/Canso/PBY isn't that hard (there's more out there than buyers, I think) if you've got a project together already.

Exciting stuff. Where's the first stop?

My consultancy has been free, so far.

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Hey James,

thank you for the positive support with this project. There certainly is a long way to go with all aspects of the project. Especially getting that initial lump sum for the purchase.

I also really like the idea of setting up a program similar to the Boxkite project. I already know from suggesting the acquisition of the Canso to the CMF management that there are different priorities. Maybe some sort of subsidiary of the CMF would be good. With the CMF as a sort of parent company if you will.

Being from BC, the "Ottawa doesn't love us" mind set is very strong in me. haha. I'll play that card when needed

If I could (And this is just dreaming) I would like to get support from Pratt and Whitney Canada for overhauling her engines. And, there are many other companies that we might be able to call upon for avionics, airframe, propellers, etc. Again, we kind of need the plane first.


Oh, and I was only joking about the "Paying to have me fly around a warbird for fun." That would not be my intention, just a by-product. My main reason for having it flown would be to create awareness and to help educate school children in less fortunate areas of BC. We could even fly to Prince George, and the Okanagan. Part of the flying program would be to remember Canada's Aviation history and to remember the men and women who lost their lives in military conflicts around the world, and most specifically in BC. As for the educational program it would be used in transporting representatives from Vancouver/Victoria based organizations to the small communities along the coast. Especially the ones that existed and supported the RCAF Squadrons during WWII. I think this machine would be a great tool for Remembrance Ceremonies all over the province.

The whole reason I'm involved with aviation history is because I love it, and I want to share it with everyone. I think the acquisition of a Canso is extremely important to the citizens of British Columbia because I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in BC that were never aware of the major efforts made during WWII to protect Western Canada from foreign attack. The Canso played a major role in doing so, and if displayed at airshows and at towns all along the west coast, I don't think people would be forgetting anytime soon. Oops, I kinda went on a tangent there. Anyways, I'm very serious about this and if acquired it would definitely be my "Baby".... but in no way would it be called my "Toy."

I also love your idea of flying her across Canada. It could meet up with other Cansos along the way and then perform an aerial display with the CWH's Canso. How exciting would that be, eh?

The Canso is a fantastic symbol of the Canadian aviation industry, the efforts made in Canada during WWII to protect its independance, and a symbol of how aviation really opened up our country.

As for the first stop.... upon acquisition I hope the first stop will be the CMF homesite... haha... and once flying, maybe the Abbotsford Airshow.

Thanks again for all your input. At this time just about everything is out of my hands. We are waiting to hear back from potential sponsors but that might not be for quite a while. I am trying to get in touch with the Department of Heritage to know what an allowable time frame is to place a bid on the airplane, and given proper funding, how to go about the making the purchase.

Cheers,

David

You've got a viable idea for a viable plan there, and don't forget a 'plane isn't actually the most critical bit. The plan, team and money are the tricky ones. If the deal doesn't happen with this aircraft there are other opportunities, right out to leasing / hiring / borrowing an airworthy Cat to do a test job with.

Feel free to drop me a note to bounce ideas about.

Good luck, keep us posted!

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

You're right James.

There are many Cansos in the sea. This one has a significance to me because it is probably one of the most deteriorated ones around, and it's a local icon. I think it would be more meaningful to save this one, than to save an already flyer. Then again, a current flyer would be easier to keep flying.

One major benefit to this one is the price tag. This one is affordable compared to a flyer that would probably cost $250,000CDN. I don't know how much, but this airplane is considerably cheaper. If we are able to send a team to inspect her, then we'll have a much better idea of the price tag.

Of note, this specific airplane had little to no service on the West Coast during WWII, but was used heavily on the east coast.

Ideally I would want to acquire a Boeing built Canso (built in Vancouver) and that served in BC, but I think there's only one surviving Boeing example, and it's relatively difficult to track down a Canso with West Coast history. Funny enough the sister ship to this one that is now at Duxford, and the example flown by the CWH were both operated on the West Coast.

One major plus to this machine though, is that our potential sponsor's relative flew this specific airplane during WWII. Without this direct connection to the airplane it might be hard to attract a sponsor.

Cheers,

David

P.S. I hope to hear back from the Department of Heritage tomorrow and I'll fill you in on what I find out.

Best of luck preserving her for Canadian posterity. What sqn. did NJB fly with in the RCAF?

Seems like I've heard on the PBY@yahoo site that a clipper bow gave slightly better aerodynamics. Also I've been told that a PBY can't be certified for water landings in US airspace with a turret because of flooding risk.

Pull up the floorboards and look for accumulated crud in the bilge, especially aft. Look for what's there and what has been there. Like rainwater. At least NJB doesn't look like its keel is rotted off. Best of luck to all our northern preservationists and museums!

Nowadays the cost of a warbird is sentimental as much as what you can sell it for. It's a labor of love, right gang?

Canso42

I understand there are similar certification issues with the bow turret in the UK, Netherlands (European requirements?) and Australia. Not sure about Canada or the US.

It's a pity, and IIRC the issue was the nosewheel doors which had unsuspected (despite reasonable checks) internal corrosion in the tube mountings which did for the first Plane Sailing cat. You want to be very sure it's in good nick before flying.


Yup! Otherwise we'd be rich and idle.

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Canso42,

Thank you very much for all the suggestions of things to look at when inspecting the airframe. If we do end up sending a team over to Nanaimo to take a look at her, it will definitely come in handy. I don't think any of us have ever inspected a Canso, so knowing what to look for is very important.

This specific Canso, was built in Quebec as CV-249, RCAF9815 and taken on strength June 1943. It served with many different Squadrons it seems, but mostly served with Eastern Air Command until being transfered to No. 13 (P) Squadron, at Rockcliffe, Ontario, from February 1945.

To my surprise I found out that by 1949 the airplane was actually operated out of RCAF Sea Island (Vancouver Airport, BC) until 1951. So haaa... there is a West Coast connection!

Then of course she was flown back east to Rockcliffe until struck off strength in 1955.

James, as for the flooding risk, that is very real and I'm not sure what kind of regulations there are in Canada. I imagine there are such regulations considering the CWH Canso has no turret, and knowing those guys, they would probably be the first to do that if they could.

I also agree with you that the plane had better be in tip-top shape before taking it anywhere. I think if we're able to acquire her and get her flying we would restrict her operations to the local airshows around Vancouver until we are sure all her systems are in top form.

Cheers,

David

David - I see that a few posts back, you asked for clarification regarding the name of the operators of C-FNJB's sister aircraft G-PBYA, ex-C-FNJF. The actual owners are a group of shareholders, collectively known as Catalina Aircraft Ltd. It is operated on their behalf by Plane Sailing Air Displays Ltd to give it its full title but usually shortened to just Plane Sailing'.

You were quite correct in saying that C-FNJB was built in Quebec but, unlike C-FNJF which like most of the Canadian Vickers Cansos and OA-10As was built in Cartierville, C-FNJB was one of 30 Canso As built at St Hubert.

In an even earlier message you asked if we planned on changing the one-piece smoked blisters for original framed ones and the answer is that now they are on, no! Although to the purist, they may look awful, it has to be said that the view out when flying is awesome (my personal mug-shot to the left is taken over Geneva and you will see what I mean). As it happens, I believe that the black glazing complements our particular USAAF livery very well but they are not to everyones taste!

Like your logo by the way!

_________________
David Legg
Editor, The Catalina News
The Catalina Society
Author: Consolidated PBY Catalina - The Peacetime Record

Hey Dave,

I didn't know NJB was a St. Hubert built Canso. That's very interesting, and I suppose makes it somewhat unique.

Thank you for the compliment on the logo. My girlfriend is going to school to become a graphic designer and she showed me the basics of some programs and I managed to turn out that logo.

By the way, it really does look like you get a far better view from tinted blisters, that's for sure. And I'd agree with you that they quite nicely compliment the planes paint scheme.

-David

So.... I just got off the phone with Mr. Ray Williams who is the local contact person for the Canso at Nanaimo. He is somewhat of a Canso/Catalina specialist and was the man who got the "Catalina Aircraft Ltd." bird flying as well as recently he was in Maine helping a gentleman there get his Cat flying.

I contacted Ray Williams because the Malaysian seller of the airplane is at times difficult to get a hold of and considering the seller had given me Ray's contact info I thought I'd try him.

What I learned is that there are actually two groups looking to purchase the airplane already (not including me and my museum). Both are groups from Canada. One is from out east, and apparently the other group is based locally on the West Coast. I don't know the names of either groups, but am interested to learn more about them and what their intentions would be with the airplane.

Again, I'll try and keep you all posted.

Cheers,

David

Today I took a few hours off work to visit Canso C-FNJB (RCAF9815) at Nanaimo Airport (ah, the joys of self-employment). People working there were extremely generous with their time and knowledge, showing me around and allowing unrestricted access both outside and in (and inviting me back for coffee and another chat sometime). It’s amazing what a smile and a few friendly words spoken through a fence will yield. A couple of gentlemen I spoke with had worked on this aircraft.

C-FNJB apparently flew in some 8 years ago, together with the machine now at Duxford (C-FNJF RCAF11005). It has not moved far since I have lived in the area (i.e., since 2001 at least). The engines were completely overhauled at that time, the air-stairs and non-standard side blisters added, and modern airline seating installed as part of an abortive plan to use this aircraft for eco-tourism in Africa. The local aircraft owner/mechanics that showed me around were unaware of any “imminent” sale although several people had expressed interest over the years. One recent bid of $80,000 CDN was turned down by the present owner although one person I met expressed his opinion that this was far more than the airframe was worth. Apparently her stablemate C-FNJF, which was in better condition, cost about $50,000 to buy and >$1 million to restore prior to her trans-atlantic journey. The same gentlemen said “But this one will never fly again…it’s a darn shame really”.

Exterior:
The aircraft is located on the secure “air-side” of the airport so there's no public access. It is tied down (note the tractor used as anchor) but there is still no tail support, and apparently the winter snowstorms caused the keel damage. To my untrained eye there was some visible, but apparently not a lot of, exterior corrosion. It seemed to be localized along a few panel lines. The control surface fabric seemed relatively intact. Both side blisters were smashed (as DaveM indicated, in a windstorm when they were left unlatched) and I was told they cost $20,000 each to install initially. The keel seemed without much corrosion (at least externally), but I did notice a few drops of water seeping out (it rained here yesterday) so it must be worse inside. All tires are semi-deflated. The front gear strut is damaged and I was told would need replacement before she could be moved. The engines were completely “toasted” according to one mechanic after having had enjoyed no maintenance whatsoever for years.

Interior:
The air-stairs are closed and I (a middle-aged guy) found it difficult to get in through the port-side side hatch as there was nothing to stand on and my gymnastic skills are a bit out of practice. The interior is completely mildewed and the seats are in terrible condition. Although seemingly relatively intact, the interior seemed relatively complete (control columns, instruments, wiring bundles, placards etc). Despite the smashed side blisters, there was little sign of corrosion inside (despite the airport being located in a temperate rainforest climate…we get a LOT of rain here). There were no bird droppings inside (outside is another story) and no signs of vandalism or “stripping”. One interesting thing for me, having crawled through the Rockcliffe example many years ago, was the complete absence of the flight engineer’s position in the central boom…in short, this bird is a long ways away from being in its original wartime configuration.

Sorry for the long-winded post but I had a great day and was inspired by all you at WIX. I shall endeavor to post photos very shortly.

Photos to follow when I work the procedure out.
Best wishes from a Newbie,
Andrew

Question for you,
why would they not at least put a tarp over the broken windows to keep out the rain??

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Cheers,
Peter

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