Warbird restoration industry

[N3Njeff]

ive been kinda wondering about this same thing. as an A&P student i would rather go to work for a restoration shop then go into some place like FED-EX, UPs etc etc.

There's an old saying in aviation...."Small planes, small money...big planes, big money." Now, with the current state of afairs in the airline industry, there may be some reason to wonder if that statement is still valid. However, I can tell you that I'm just finishing up my 20th year of being in this line of work and I just recently purchased a "pot to p1ss in," although I'm still making payments on it. My point is that when you get out of A&P school, you need to decide what you want in life. Do you need to support a family with your license and your work, or can you survive on the meager wages that you'll make at a Warbird restoration facility? An airline type job (particularly freight haulers) might be the more sensible way to go, but if your heart is in these old airplanes and you don't mind struggling financially in exchange for being encouraged to perform good, quality work, then the Warbird arena is for you.

The payoff in the Warbird world isn't usually monetary in nature. It's the respect of your peers and more so the feeling of pride you feel when a Veteran or youngster marvels at the work you've done to a flying piece of history. It's the people and the machines in this industry that have kept me here. And I intend to be tinkering with these ol' clunkers for quite a while.

Gary

Gary's post hits hard as the truith of a mech. Bigger planes, bigger paychecks. I took the airline route and knew what to expect. Working on 13 yrs of nights, smelly jet engines, in the early years, plugged up lavatory's ( I am a sr mech now ) Had a maintenance base closure, moved the family to another state and we dont like it. Now were waiting on an announcement in the next few days with our future of the Air Carrier we fly for if they are decreasing our work even more. This time it will mean layoffs. Tho I am in the top 200 of over 1000 mechanics, the boat will need to get pretty low to force me off ship.

But lately I have been thinking about other options. "Eric, I even asked if she would consider St. Louis"
Its been a long time since I have had a job that I liked going to every day. I can make a multi million dollar airplane fly, but my best memory of my work is watching a super cub tow a banner running at 2750 and not missing a beat after I replaced its mags 2 days prior.

Sorry for the rant.

[N3Njeff]

ive been kinda wondering about this same thing. as an A&P student i would rather go to work for a restoration shop then go into some place like FED-EX, UPs etc etc.

There's an old saying in aviation...."Small planes, small money...big planes, big money." Now, with the current state of afairs in the airline industry, there may be some reason to wonder if that statement is still valid. However, I can tell you that I'm just finishing up my 20th year of being in this line of work and I just recently purchased a "pot to p1ss in," although I'm still making payments on it. My point is that when you get out of A&P school, you need to decide what you want in life. Do you need to support a family with your license and your work, or can you survive on the meager wages that you'll make at a Warbird restoration facility? An airline type job (particularly freight haulers) might be the more sensible way to go, but if your heart is in these old airplanes and you don't mind struggling financially in exchange for being encouraged to perform good, quality work, then the Warbird arena is for you.

The payoff in the Warbird world isn't usually monetary in nature. It's the respect of your peers and more so the feeling of pride you feel when a Veteran or youngster marvels at the work you've done to a flying piece of history. It's the people and the machines in this industry that have kept me here. And I intend to be tinkering with these ol' clunkers for quite a while.

Gary

Gary's post hits hard as the truith of a mech. Bigger planes, bigger paychecks. I took the airline route and knew what to expect. Working on 13 yrs of nights, smelly jet engines, in the early years, plugged up lavatory's ( I am a sr mech now ) Had a maintenance base closure, moved the family to another state and we dont like it. Now were waiting on an announcement in the next few days with our future of the Air Carrier we fly for if they are decreasing our work even more. This time it will mean layoffs. Tho I am in the top 200 of over 1000 mechanics, the boat will need to get pretty low to force me off ship.

But lately I have been thinking about other options. "Eric, I even asked if she would consider St. Louis"
Its been a long time since I have had a job that I liked going to every day. I can make a multi million dollar airplane fly, but my best memory of my work is watching a super cub tow a banner running at 2750 and not missing a beat after I replaced its mags 2 days prior.

Sorry for the rant.

[k5083]

Interestingly, people seem to be saying that you can't get rich restoring warbirds even if you are great at it, have a good reputation and are always busy. That begs for explanation because those things will make you rich in most other businesses. Maybe the reason is that you are competing against people, some of them also very good, who love the job so much that they will do it for very little return, or even for a loss. It is always very difficult, in any field, to compete as a hard headed business against those kind of folks, and the industry tends not to build the kind of ROI that would attract rational investors. Smart businessmen avoid competing in areas that people are that passionate about.

August

[retroaviation]

Yeah, there has always been the question of, "Why do these guys pay $100 per hour to get their BMW worked on, but complain when we charge $50 per hour to work on their P-51?" It's just one of those unanwerable questions like, Does Sasquatch exist? Do trees make noise when falling if nobody is there to hear them? Or, just how big is the Loch Ness Monster? Some things just don't have an answer.

Gary

[Second Air Force]

JBrawner,

If you decide to go to work for a big operator, UPS/Fedex is definitely the only way to go. Pax airlines are going to continue to be unstable for a long time, in my opinion.

N3Njeff,

Amen, my friend. Your last post (not a rant to many of us) hit home hard for me as well. We are going through a long-term decision making process at our house, and I am not sure what we'll be doing in the next few years. One of my few friends in the aviation world asked me the other day what satisfaction/recognition I get for a job well done at my current job (airline). My answer was "I get to finish someone else's job, too." On the other hand, when Ol' 927 flew for the first time in July, I actually felt the kind of satisfaction that makes hard work worthwhile. Is money the only driving force behind what we do in life? Possibly, especially if there is a family to provide for. On the other hand, it would be nice to be known as a person instead of an employee number.

Sorry for the hijacking!
Scott

[Second Air Force]

JBrawner,

If you decide to go to work for a big operator, UPS/Fedex is definitely the only way to go. Pax airlines are going to continue to be unstable for a long time, in my opinion.

N3Njeff,

Amen, my friend. Your last post (not a rant to many of us) hit home hard for me as well. We are going through a long-term decision making process at our house, and I am not sure what we'll be doing in the next few years. One of my few friends in the aviation world asked me the other day what satisfaction/recognition I get for a job well done at my current job (airline). My answer was "I get to finish someone else's job, too." On the other hand, when Ol' 927 flew for the first time in July, I actually felt the kind of satisfaction that makes hard work worthwhile. Is money the only driving force behind what we do in life? Possibly, especially if there is a family to provide for. On the other hand, it would be nice to be known as a person instead of an employee number.

Sorry for the hijacking!
Scott

[JBrawner]

well the answer for me is.. if i can survive doing restoratiosn , thats what i want to do. the whole making lots more moeny working on the cargo dogs is great but i get more out of having a vet thank me for keeping something that means something to him or saving it for kids growing up like my nephew who is starting to want to work on warbirds like me. ive done numerous 9-10 am till midnight-1 am days tryign to get things done on weekends... yes i get tired adn grumpy but who wouldnt..... am i back the next day ready to go... heck yea. i dont mind the hard work and long hours... keeps me out of trouble elsewhere. growing up the way i did... money wasnt much, as long as ends meet im ok with that. now i wish gary would have posted more of the fabric covering... as im doing the same kinda project in school right now and the ray stits video they showed us goes way to quickly. oh well off to study that AC 43.13-1B some more so i can get the rib stitching down.

We had Tracor Aviation here in Santa Barbara for many years until the plug was pulled. They employed several thousand people. A lot of folks purchased homes here and thought they were here for good, nope, everything fell apart and a lot of people lost everything. Not much notice either. As far as the warbird industry is concerned, there seems to be not much of a market. Really, just how many warbird restorations are going on at any given time world wide? I'm beginning to see warbird restorations as similar to artists .... you better have a passion and be satisfied with limited work for little pay, or simply walk away and try something else. I agree with a previous post, when you have people that will gladly do work on your warbird for very little pay for the satisfaction of it, how could someone else possibly do the same quaility work and seek a profit? ... not possible. I assume that full-time, sustainable employment in the warbird world is not a high numbered position.

[retroaviation]

now i wish gary would have posted more of the fabric covering... as im doing the same kinda project in school right now and the ray stits video they showed us goes way to quickly. oh well off to study that AC 43.13-1B some more so i can get the rib stitching down.

Well, I posted pretty much all of the "important" items on the covering job I just did, but there's no rib stitching on a plywood covered wing. But it's cool to know you're paying attention.

For those of you who don't know what we're talking about, you can read about it here... http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=17299

Okay, my hijacking of this thread is over.

Gary

There certainly seems to be some very concerning issues on the horizon for the warbird world. As prices go up in all directions concerning warbirds, I wonder if I will see in my lifetime a day when we all can only look way back when warbirds were actually flying. Maybe that day will arrive when we only see warbirds sitting in museums and never flown anymore. And then this would bring up the question of the quality of warbird restorations in the future, why spend the time and money on a full restoration to flying condition when you know that airplane will never leave the ground. Then we possibly would see such aircraft as Typhoons and the like in museums completely restored but without the need for a sabre engine which would cost un-godly amounts of money extra for no reason. You ask, who would want a Typhoon without an engine in it? ... well years from now, probably a lot of museums as these examples become more and more extinct. And then who's to say that way out there in the future warbird museums will only have fiberglass warbirds in them. We already see mock-ups of things in museums .... UGH!!!! .... I'm getting a headache .....

[SPANNERmkV]

After just putting on a "Management Hat" with a Volunteer Organization that is "Budget Challenged" I wish I could hire you ALL.

I bought most of my restoration experience on "exotic" cars... Make that 50s and 60s rust-bucket Jaguar Sports Cars.

As deep as I care to get into the subject is... I wish I could hire you ALL!

SPANNER
Don Price

[bdk]

now i wish gary would have posted more of the fabric covering... as im doing the same kinda project in school right now and the ray stits video they showed us goes way to quickly. oh well off to study that AC 43.13-1B some more so i can get the rib stitching down.

I am generally not the alarmist type, but be very careful with the chemicals used in fabric covering. I know two people who are seriously afflicted with Parkinsons disease that used to do a lot of fabric covering. Not a scientific conclusion by any means, but don't breath the fumes, even through a charcoal respirator. Either do it outside or get a forced air mask. And wear gloves. My opinion is that the Stits process is very dangerous. The others may be just as bad though. Why do you think they call it dope?

[retroaviation]

I am generally not the alarmist type, but be very careful with the chemicals used in fabric covering. I know two people who are seriously afflicted with Parkinsons disease that used to do a lot of fabric covering. Not a scientific conclusion by any means, but don't breath the fumes, even through a charcoal respirator. Either do it outside or get a forced air mask. And wear gloves. My opinion is that the Stits process is very dangerous. The others may be just as bad though. Why do you think they call it dope?

Good point, Brandon. As you read, I mentioned in my post about covering the wings, that I wasn't wearing gloves, but paid for it by digging glue out of my hands for a few days. Obviously, that is the short term affect for that kind of blunder. There is no doubt that, over time, those kinds of chemicals can be bad for you. I reckon I was just trying to tell it as an example of "what not to do." I can assure you though, that I wear a top quality respirator when painting.....especially with those "catylist type" paints.

Gary

[phil65]

Yeah, there has always been the question of, "Why do these guys pay $100 per hour to get their BMW worked on, but complain when we charge $50 per hour to work on their P-51?" It's just one of those unanwerable questions like, Does Sasquatch exist? Do trees make noise when falling if nobody is there to hear them? Or, just how big is the Loch Ness Monster? Some things just don't have an answer.

Gary

I was always told that people need their cars but not their planes

Some of my best memories (like my friend from VT) are from working on some Kite but working in 90 degree temps or 10 below can get old quick
I will take the A/C we have here at Pratt (it hit 60 degrees here today ) and the pay is good so I can pay the bills and go flying. If I feel like getting my hands dirty I will help the local Museum/FBO/Warbird on the weekends for the standard rate of a free lunch, T-shirt or ride
That may be part of the restoration problem,owners hire one A&P and the rest are volunteers

Phil

Last edited by phil65 on Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.

[P51Mstg]

The one thing nobody considers here is that there are acutally limits on how much work one guy can do.

Assume you want the quality work done by THE MAN HIMSELF (TMH).....

A simple example is a dentist. They never get rich because TMH can only drill, fill and bill so many teeth a day. He may hire another dentist to work for him, but the customer really wants TMH. TMH can get help with someone cleaning teeth, doing XRAYs, etc. But TMH isn't a machine and cannot do more than so much work a day.

A neurosurgeon can make more money since they simply do the critical part of the surgery and someone else opens and closes the unconcious patient. 3 hours of surgery turns into 30 minutes for TMH and 2 1/2 hours for someone else.

You can't build a machine to restore warbirds. You can have a helper blast off corrosion, but if TMH is the sheetmetal guy and can only put the rivets in the right way, he has to do it. The problem is the demands on his time. The rich guys with the planes want to talk the TMH ONLY. So he spends a lot of time on the phone keeping the guy writing the checks happy. He probably has to do some business items in the back office too. He may well sign the checks for his own company (which takes time).

The next problem is you can only supervise so many people. As you try to watch more people, quality goes down. Another problem is that if you teach the people who work for you too much, sooner or later you find them at the hangar across the street as your competitor. There are problems.

If you have a high volume business, and need help, let me know, I'm an expert at running one. I did it for 12 years in a high volume law practice with 28 employees and 4 lawyers working for me. We made a lot of money, but it was a lot of work. But as TMH, I was limited to what I could do behind the scenes. Clients wanted to only talk to me, I did the selling, I was the "face" of the firm and I had some talented people in the back room doing the work. I also did a lot of the work too, up to 100 hours a week.

So if you can change things around and consider it this way. If you rebuild engines which is a relatively routine task, you turn it over to a machinist who can do the machine work to specs. Then you assemble the engine.

If its something THAT IS AN ART, like bending sheetmetal, TMH has to do it. Or he has to absorb the COST of training someone else to do it (Pay them, eat the cost of the scrap they produce, etc) and risk having them move across the street).

Building parts, is another one. Look at the ME262 project, they built (or will buiild) 5 of them. If they built one and them you walk in and ask for one, its going to cost a lot more than if you built 2 at once. In their project, they sold 2 and have 3 left. They can't sell the last 3 "cheap" since they may sit on the "shelf" for years before they get sold.

If you build an elevator to spec for a P-51 and put it on the shelf, the value goes up every year since you carried it in inventory. If I bend mine and want to fly next week, I'll probably have to pay more for yours NOW than getting one built for me in 3 years with my plane sitting on the ground.....................


So if you were Gerry Beck and can look at a truckload of aluminum and see a P-51 you are THE MAN HIMSELF. Its tough to get rich doing that. But you can have some cool toys that ONLY you can have.......... If you want the money then you have to sell the toys and convert the toy to cash.

Mark H