CAF "109" Listed as sold.

[Obergrafeter]

Like the B-23. Why not take the money from the sale of one and restore one of the others? My problem with selling these planes is how do you get others to donate planes, or money if you are just going to turn around and sell them. If the planes don't have a taker for reassignment why not pickle them and put them on display so another type does not have to rotate in to Midland from Timbuktu every other year? It would seem to me stupid to fly in China Doll for her rotation if there was already a C-46 sitting there.

[retroaviation]

It would seem to me stupid to fly in China Doll for her rotation if there was already a C-46 sitting there.

I dunno. I sure thought it was cool to see two C-46's here for Airsho, vs. one...but that's just me. And sure, some of the airplanes that the CAF has are indeed static displayed (though not necessarily "pickled"). And you're right on the money, Ober...the money from the sale of these airplanes is indeed going towards the restoration of another airplane in need......the B-29. Glad to know you see things the same way we do for a change.

Gary

[Obergrafeter]

And when we sell the C-46 you will never see two of them at Midland again, so seeing two of them this year will be such a poignant moment to remember. Heck lets sell the two B-17s and the B-24 and then we will have enough money to reengine the B-29.

[Forgotten Field]

I was under the impression that each squadron which sponsored an aircraft was responsible for raising it's own capital to maintain or restore that aircraft. Is this a sea change in the CAF? Why not spend some of the money on other CAF aircraft which are closer to being flown?

[Chris]

I think you're missing the point Ober. The CAF is not selling airplanes just to re engine the B-29 or just to raise funds. These are planes that have been up for assignment for quite some time. The lack of interest shown by CAF members in pursuing their assignment has made them expendable. I'm positive that if any group had actively gone after the PV-2, 109 or C-46, then HQ would have assigned the planes to that group and they would still be in the CAF inventory. The simple fact is that Not very many CAF wings have the membership or funding to take on these aircraft as projects. Because of the advancing age of our members and the lack of big cash influxes, unfortunately, I think this trend will continue. Just my two cents.

[Obergrafeter]

THANK YOU !!!!!!!! Forgotten Field...................finally someone maybe just partially gets my point. Figured it would have to come from a non member!

[retroaviation]

Ober, with all due respect..............oh, nevermind. I reckon once you're mad at the CAF, we'll never be able to make things right, huh?


Gary

[Obergrafeter]

Chris I do get the point. Been in for over 25 years. I hope you are right about the use of the money. I hope all the money does go to other airplanes and not to Midlands coffers. But I stand by my point of leaving the planes in Midland as statics to save flying airplanes from having to rotate in every couple of years. I am getting older too, and tried almost single handed to keep one of the fleet flying, and was chastised when I returned it so it could be reassigned. Hopefully it will be RTS this summer.

[Taylor Stevenson]

Ober... It has come to the point where I expect nothing productive out of you in any conversation about the CAF. It seems your whole goal in life is to naysay and criticize. Come to a GS meeting and get all the details. They are open to everyone! Unless you get involved and show an effort to educate yourself on recent CAF decisions, you have no grounds to criticize.

[Taylor Stevenson]

Chris I do get the point. Been in for over 25 years. I hope you are right about the use of the money. I hope all the money does go to other airplanes and not to Midlands coffers.

Ober there is NO midland coffer!!! We are like any other non-profit organization of today whose main goal is to keep the lights on and the mission going... If you truly believe midland is selling artifacts just so they have a little pocket money to dole out in holiday bonus' etc. then you are GRAVELY mistaken. Come on, man.

[Steve S]

I think it is a shame that this topic has to create such intense feelings in a non productie way. The REALITY of this whole thing is that there are some folks that are faced with some really really tough descision on how to make things work with VERY LIMITED funding. Pherhaps they are not making the desicions that I would make and I certainlly have a right to disagree with them, however I do not have the right to expect them to do it hte way I would whiel I sit around and armchair quarterback.

I think Obergrafter has some valid concerns and he is probaly genuinly worried about the long term implications that these actions have for the organziation. ON the other side, the folks making the desciosn are probaly aware of a whole lot of stuff that, as we are sitting in our nice comfy chairs in front of our computuers, several thousand miles away cannot be aware of. I have yet to meet any member of the CAF whose ultimate purpose and goal was anything but furthering the education of the general public and keeping the aircraft flying. We need to remember that in addtion to the great work we see coming from the maintenance staff folsk such as Gary- things like monthly utility bills (Any geuss on how much a month is costs to heat an aircraft ahanger- not much R -Value in an aluminum skined bulding), INSURANCE, a hostile segment of the public and government to what we do, and a whole host of other things that we all take for granted but must be dealt with on a day to day basis. I am not sure what you think the Midland Coffers are all about but I can assure you that the folks in home office are not using the money to Jet off to Rio on the weekends or by new sports cars.

Do I hate to see airplans being sold off- sure- but I realize that in the long term a very carefull and select selling off of aircraft to allow others that can generate even more money for the organization to operate is really a tough but necessary evil, and of course if the doors close becasue a lack of operating funds than everythying is lost. Keep in mind that if FIFI can fly agian there is a better chance that it can generate funding, sponsorship, and general interset aomong the public to allow some of the other more obscure and raire aircrfact such as the B23 or Twin Moustang to be flown again.

We must remeber folks that while we all understand how really important these aircraft are 98% of the general populations doesnt know the difference betweena B17 and a B52, accept that they probaly think the B52 is cooler.
FOLKS- We can try to work together in all of this or we can act like a bunch of cackling old hens who are only happy when we are unhappy and let it all fall apart- Your call.

Steve S

[Obergrafeter]

Thank you Steve. I am genuinely concerned and have PMd some of those concerned as to that end. Reading back perhaps (allright surely) I use too much sarcasam, but think that weither I am at General Staff meetings or not I can have ideas and reservations. Some of us serve on the local level and don't have the resources to travel to Midland monthly.

[Bill Greenwood]

Like any large organization, the CAF is going to do things that liked by one segment and disliked by another. There was a great deal of discussion when moving out of Harlingen. Many would have liked it located closer to Austin, or Houston, perhaps in San Marcos. But it was put to a vote of the members and in the end the financial factors favored Midland.
Perhaps sale of major airplanes should also be voted on, but what if the vote is to keep the 109 and still nobody will sponsor it? I have been told that one of the experienced pilots and longtime CAF member was asked to take on a 109 and did not want to. I am sorry to see a most important fighter of WWII, even not the true version sold, while common modern ones are retained. It is a direction that may be inevitable, but I will be one of those old guys who will miss what was.
P.S. Hey Gary, got any good photos from that Rio trip?

[FG1D Pilot]

As a member of the CAF board ( General Staff) for the past 3 years, and having known Ober for 25 years or so, I have a few comments.

My time on the General Staff ends next week. It has been a hard journey but with many rewards. The GS is always at the fore front making the hard decisions that running an organization requires. The requirement of time, money, not to mention the time and money, is unbelievable. We do make descisions based on the facts presented and what's in the best interest of the CAF. We won't please everyone.

In my spare time I am also a football and basketball official. I know every time I blow my whistle, half the people are going to be pissed. If I don't blow my whistle, the other half is going to be pissed. So if I want to please everyone, I just don't need to show up. Old Shep is a high school basketball coach. I have officiated some of his games, he wasn't always happy, but at least he'd have the common courtesy to thank me after the game. The General Staff and HQ are in the same boat. You can't please everyone, especially if you don't do anything.

Airplanes sitting with no interest from the membership becomes a waste. The GS has decided to sell the unwanted aircraft for the betterment of desireable aircraft. The B29 is just one example of where the money is invested. It was decided that "FIFI" as the queen of the fleet, must be returned to the air as soon as possible. We have added many more aircraft to the fleet than we have sold; A flying Zero, flying Spitfire and many more. The money to aquire these aircraft come from the aircraft aquisition fund and money raised by the units wanting assignment of the aircraft. Money made from any sale, goes to aircraft only. HQ gets nothing.

Ober, since you are so interested in saving and restoring these warbirds, and want to pick bones with HQ and the GS for selling aircraft, why did you sell the L-6 that I helped you restore? You didn't ask me! And I didn't get pissed either

And by the way, I'm taking some of my officiating money and going to Vegas next week. I'll put a few bucks on 29 for FIFI.

[michael luther]

Doug,

It was good to see you in Vegas 2 weeks ago! But your going back again?