Warbird population in 30 years

[Bill Greenwood]

Hellcat, I think Rick meant his comment mostly as a joke and that's how I took it. He and I, along with others PM a lot mostly in a humorous way. If you want to be serious, I guess global warning may eventually result in less use of internal combustion engines. Our few old piston waribrds are a pretty small drop in the bucket of the total, compared to cars, jets, and industrial uses like power plants.

[DoraNineFan]

the only flying warbirds will be jets and they will be operating on bio fuels

I might assume that there's a potential fuel alternative in the racing ethanol/alcohol blends for piston engines? The drawbacks are expense for such a specialized fuel, lowered fuel economy, and the corrosive effects of alcohol in the fuel systems and engines. Butanol or bio-butanol can produce nearly as much power as gasoline, too.

Maybe in the near future some aero-engine shop will be testing these fuel sources. I think a good number of regular GA aircraft will be adopting new diesel engines (such as Thielert) which can potentially run on biodiesel fuels and offer better fuel economy.

Last edited by DoraNineFan on Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bill, Rick maybe, but muddyboots is getting charged up, I just want some good feedback, not asking for too much, right? ... I'm the least serious unless I would like some mature conversation. The only way this WIX site keeps me interested is when we discuss topics like this in a mature way. I goof off too much as it is ... lololol ... NOW DON'T P*SS ME OFF, I know where your spit is and I'll be there in January ... hehehe, I may just go out there and clean off the snow from the wings, fire it up and hijack it back to Santa barbara ... lolol

Seriuosly, .... I wonder about "Provenance Fighter Sales " .. are they taking the lead on pricing up the warbird sales. I have never seen such aircraft for sale for so much, are they the front runner in what is becoming common? I remember just a couple years ago you could purchase a P-51 in mint condition for a million bucks, now I'm seeing 2 to 3 million and up. Is this where the warbird sales are leading, because if it is, then only Billionares will be able to afford Warbirds 30 years from now.

[bdk]

Seriuosly, .... I wonder about "Provenance Fighter Sales " .. are they taking the lead on pricing up the warbird sales.

I don't understand why some people get so hung up on Provenance Fighter Sales. I remember how people were thinking that Howie Keefe was nuts for asking $200K when he was selling Miss America. There will always be people selling at the high end and people selling at the low end. It is the buyer that sets the price though. Just because you ask more than the other guy doesn't mean that the aircraft is worth more. Apparently in Provenance's case they are worth that much because they continue to prosper. Keep in mind though that they only sell the best of the best.

Very true, the market justifies the price, the demand justifies the price .... You only have to look as far as professional sports ... but that's for another day ...

[muddyboots]

I know you can do better than that muddyboots, you seem like a smart guy, just a little hot at times, but I guess I am too at times. There's a time and a place for politics, just not here in this post.

You're right, Hellcat. I am too hot at times. Apologies all round, and please lets try to keep all this political crap in church where it belongs, eh?

What really ticked e off was the insinuation that Bill might be as stupid as Al. Let's leave it at home, okay? Well, unless you're going to let me start making fun of curious george again

Last edited by muddyboots on Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You're right, Hellcat. I am too hot at times. Apoloies all round

Never apologize ... It's a sign of weakness ... haven't you ever watched a John Wayne movie? .... I'm kidding Muddy, much accepted and very much thank you's ... You do just fine here in WIX, without guys like you ... we would all be bored ... lolol

[muddyboots]

Hellcat, how hard do you think it would be to hotwire a Spit?

[n5151ts]

the only flying warbirds will be jets and they will be operating on bio fuels

I might assume that there's a potential fuel alternative in the racing ethanol/alcohol blends for piston engines? The drawbacks are expense for such a specialized fuel, lowered fuel economy, and the corrosive effects of alcohol in the fuel systems and engines. Butanol or bio-butanol can produce nearly as much power as gasoline, too.

Maybe in the near future some aero-engine shop will be testing these fuel sources. I think a good number of regular GA aircraft will be adopting new diesel engines (such as Thielert) which can potentially run on biodiesel fuels and offer better fuel economy.

If someone cracks that nut with a retro fuel that doesn't require an extensive system modification/alteration Ill be a happy camper indeed!

[warbird1]

If someone cracks that nut with a retro fuel that doesn't require an extensive system modification/alteration Ill be a happy camper indeed!

The technology already exists and has existed for a long time. Google "Fischer-Tropsch process" to find more info on it. In a nutshell, it is synthetic gasoline derived from coal and/or natural gas. It burns clean and is not terribly difficult to make. The problem is that it would require a HUGE amount of initial investment to make it a viable energy alternative. Each plant built in the U.S. would cost $ 4 Billion to make. Multiply this times at least 10 or more plants for it to be effective and you can see the cost would be very, very expensive.

[CAPFlyer]

The technology already exists and has existed for a long time. Google "Fischer-Tropsch process" to find more info on it. In a nutshell, it is synthetic gasoline derived from coal and/or natural gas. It burns clean and is not terribly difficult to make. The problem is that it would require a HUGE amount of initial investment to make it a viable energy alternative. Each plant built in the U.S. would cost $ 4 Billion to make. Multiply this times at least 10 or more plants for it to be effective and you can see the cost would be very, very expensive.

The problem is that it still uses a "non-renewable" source. How are you cutting the reliance on fossil fuels when you are simply exchanging one for another? The problem is that demand is growing faster than production (mainly due to arbitrary government regulations and NIMBY attitudes both in the US and abroad that make it extremely difficult to build new refineries and equally arbitrary fuel blending standards that results in hundreds of specialty blends that artificially reduce the supply and asymmetrically increase the cost of production) and as such, we get the problems we have now with prices being so high. Until a change in attitude is reached and the realization is made that the problem isn't that we're running out, it's that we've hamstrung ourselves from being able to efficiently, cleanly, and rapidly produce, refine, and deliver the fuels that is causing the problems we're now paying for at the pump.

[warbird1]

The problem is that it still uses a "non-renewable" source. How are you cutting the reliance on fossil fuels when you are simply exchanging one for another?

Yes, this is true, but the U.S. has 25% of all the world's supply of coal - enough to last us many hundreds of years, even with using the coal to gas synthesis process. We would be totally independent of any other countries. It would not be a final solution, but would buy us precious time until the advent of the next leap of technology in transportation. I really doubt the internal combustion engine will last another 100 years. If we don't develop the technology to develop something to replace the gas/turbine engine in the next 200 years, then something is seriously wrong. I don't see the coal to gas synthesis as a solution as much as a time-buyer. In that role, I think it would fit perfectly.

[RickH]

Let me get this out of the wqay first,... Muddy, I didn't take a shot at Bill or anybody else. I would expect that on a lot of things you and Bill see things a lot closer to the way ALGore does than some of the rest of us. Someone else brought up global warming and suggested that Bill give him a ride, probably to show Al that warbirds aren't bad, This goes back to another thread where Bill suggested that giving the occasional ride can go a long way to disarming anti airport miscreants. The shot was directed at AlGore, not because of his political leanings but because he's gotten so, um, LARGE. Bill has a strict weight limit for the back seat of the Spitfire and Al don't cut it ! Bill's right, Tipper may make it, which brings us back to the original ulterior motive aviation statement. " Wanna see my airplane, little girl" ? unfortunately Tipper would probably be more impressed with the shiny new G-5 parked next to the Spit at Aspen.

So that Hellcat doesn't get upset with me for answering, as to Biofuels issue for jets; certification is being done as we speak. The USAF recently ran some tests on a Biojet fuel using a B-52. The first flights involved flying a B-52 with only a couple of engines running on the biojet. Subsequent flights were flown with ALL engines running on the stuff. Apparently it worked just fine and the USAF is having a bunch of the stuff brewed up for further acceptance testing. The airlines and the FAA are watching closely.

As far as oils are concerned, 120 wt or 60wt ( if you're using the new scale ) is getting harder to find. Phillips is making the multigrade but I don't know how widely available it is, I've never seen it in drums, only plastic jugs.

[Lynn Allen]

Remember the Germans were using "other" fuels at the end of the wars. I think that the piston warbirds will fly as long as the owners want them to...

Lynn

[EXPAT0149]

I hope there will be more in the air , but then again i still think i will win the lottery