English airport owners force out a museum

[Hal B]

If it weren't for commercial aviation, aviation museums like taht one, and general aviation would not exist. We al know that the vast majority of serivices they live of of are byproducts of commercial aviation.

So complaining that a museum has been driven out by an airports attempt to make money is like a child complaining that his mother won't let him suck her milk 'cause she has to cover her boob and go back to work.

You are kidding, I hope.

Like someone else said; If it were left to commercial aviation there would be NO general aviation!

[muddyboots]

Obviously you didn't bother to read anything I wrote BUT that line, but you folks who think you could hold the earth up by your silly little two seater selves have not a clue. The aviation community is bankrolled by large doses of governemnt funding aimed at large corporations. The little gen av barely makes a tic on the scale. How is that so hard not to get? It didnt start that way, certainly. But then, is ANYTHING in the world what it was back when the Wright Bros started playing with gliders? Today commercial aviation is the central hub around which everything else (including military stuff) revolves. How in the world can you guys not see that? It's blatantly obvious to anyone I know that if Com Av went down, aviation in general would die a very fast death right behind it.

Somehow I get the idea that ya'll think I LIKE this. I don't. I wish we could go back to little puddle jumpers. But it'll never happen, and anyone who denies it is just refusing to see reality. The money is still in the big birds.

Now MORALLY I woudl agree. But moral does not have a cotton picking thing to do with money, as the plantation owner said.

[mustangdriver]

Bizarre. I'm agreeing with Mustangdriver AND bdk and NOT with Muddyboots, all on the same topic! Twilight Zone.

I think Mustangdriver's put it well.

It's not an either or scenario; we need both GA and airlines; however the list of charges against airlines in terms of general bad business practice and big business pressure is long, and evident in the US, Canada, the UK, much of Europe and Australia from my own understanding. GA isn't perfect or excused, but GA hardly ever puts pressure on the airlines, or could sustain the fines airlines (Like Qantas and British Airways, recently) take in their bloated stride. On the other hand the airlines are always pressurising GA, deliberately or accidentally, and in Europe, airline lobbying has certainly created pointless obstacles and costs for GA and warbird operations.

We need the airlines, and many of my friends and colleagues work in the business (as do many posters here) but like a government, I'd trust them as far as I could spit them.

Cheers,

That is odd. "Elizabeth this is the big one"

[mustangdriver]

Obviously you didn't bother to read anything I wrote BUT that line, but you folks who think you could hold the earth up by your silly little two seater selves have not a clue. The aviation community is bankrolled by large doses of governemnt funding aimed at large corporations. The little gen av barely makes a tic on the scale. How is that so hard not to get? It didnt start that way, certainly. But then, is ANYTHING in the world what it was back when the Wright Bros started playing with gliders? Today commercial aviation is the central hub around which everything else (including military stuff) revolves. How in the world can you guys not see that? It's blatantly obvious to anyone I know that if Com Av went down, aviation in general would die a very fast death right behind it.

Somehow I get the idea that ya'll think I LIKE this. I don't. I wish we could go back to little puddle jumpers. But it'll never happen, and anyone who denies it is just refusing to see reality. The money is still in the big birds.

Now MORALLY I woudl agree. But moral does not have a cotton picking thing to do with money, as the plantation owner said.

No way man. Aviation is here to stay. I wish it was not a Ga vs. Com Av. thing, but you know who made it that way? You guessed it. Commerical Airlines. Commercial Airlines keep track of all of the delays. They have a big number of reason to chalk them up to including weather, operations, mechanical, passenger service, crew rest, baggage and outside folks and more. Now I see airlines time and time again overbooking flights, taking a delay while they figure out who is going to stay, and then leave the gate late. Do you know what their answer to why there were som many delays last year was? General aviation air traffic. Give me a break. KAGC used to be the main commercial airport in Pittsburgh, and when they opened KPIT everyone said, Oh boy. Well guess what. We now have both Air Methods Air Ambulance service, Stat MedEvac Air Ambulance service, several corporate operators and GA, and the airport is very busy.
having worked for an airline, I had the chance to see how those criminals do business first hand. I worked in operations for them. I had the pleasure of hearing from the TV news that I was getting laid off, prior to going into work and finding out for real. I ran not walked from that place.
The air does not belong to the Airlines. As bad as they would like that to be true, it is not. I have just as much right to be there in a J-3 than they do in a 757.
I am not aiming this at you muddyboots, you and I are cool. But this is a real sore spot with me.

[JDK]

It's blatantly obvious to anyone I know that if Com Av went down, aviation in general would die a very fast death right behind it.

Of course that can't happen any more than GA can stop tomorrow. However, never missing a pointless 'what if' if there we no airliner the rest of aviation would get a lot more popular all of a sudden. A GA plane needs a field, gas, an engineer and a driver. Amazingly, throughout aviation, it's been possible to do all of that without the airline biz being involved at all. As to gas prices, the existence of aviation in the UK at the petrol prices they pay proves(!) that's not a deterrent.

Conversely, no GA, no bugsmasher pilot training, fewer or no pilots...

The airlines would like you to believe they have the best interests of aviation at heart, and there's a positive trickle-down from them. A straw poll here (with professionals in all walks of the aviation business involved) I'd expect would show the negative effects cause more pain than the positive aspects, on GA.

Take one thing. In aviation magazines, the pro trade mags for the airline biz are swamped by the mags for the GA market. Or the warbird/vintage scene. Or light aviation. Yes, we need airliners to get around, the commercial advantages of moving stuff by air is enormous, and he economics massive, but if it went *poof* tomorrow, there's be little effect on the rural field puddlejumper, and he'd have friends wanting a ride interstate...

Not that I know anything about GA or the airlines.

[muddyboots]

I know you aren't mustang. I see them exactly the same way you do. Unfortunately, due to the whole "military necessity" thing, they have a stranglehold on the government coffers. And the public. And avgas prices are way dependant on them. You think they don't cook up prices with Opec to set the tone for the new quarter? Better believe it.

All I am saying is that ComAir has got it's nasty little hands wrapped so tightly around the reins that if they ever let go, it'll probably be the detah knell for what we now percieve to be the aviation community in general. If you think of just how many things have been justified by government as neccessary to commercail aviation needs, you'll see what I mean. This is mostly because there is such a duality of purpose in military and civial aviation. Small aircraft don't need long runways. Who does? Commercial and Military. So where to most GenAir people have to congregate in order to get decent services? Large airports. Where there are dominated by the Commercial Airlines...

Ah, it's a big snare. They jack us off and around and spit on us, but it's also a pact with the devil WE made as well. In order to get all those cool toys like radar and long runways and relatively cheap flights to Cancun, we sold out to the bastards. And we have seen good come of it. Just not enough, IMHO.

But as long as ComAir has the reigns, they'll continue to say wheter East Tiddlesbury has a museum or not.

[muddyboots]

watch airports disappear as they have no financing.

Muddy......

Not quite true... .unlike the USA, the average UK GA pilot/owner/operator is already subjected to a "pay as you use" system, in the form of landing fees, (and ridiculously high fuel taxes) which help supplement the operating costs of the airports and the ATC system.

Julian

Ah...I apologize. Whatch American airports clsoe up shop. And since the rest of the worlkd flies here, well, they'll have to shuttle around a bit and decide where they want to go vacation. Our economy will go more to sugar, and even less people will be able to afford to fly. It would soon be a very small communuty of rich old farts (worse than it is now, even) who own grass strips and drink bloody mary's before flying off to play polo in the Village.

hows that?

ComAir is like a boil that oozes gold instead of pus. darn you wish it would go away. But if anybody tried to help you would kick their ass.

[JDK]

Fly Cub.

[muddyboots]

Actually, a cub is the only plane I have ever flown, from take off to landing. Back in the day when you could put your 14 year old nephew in the seat and take a nap...

[Brett]

I have to agree with Muddyboots.

Lets look at training.
Some airlines are now training their own pilots fom scratch, rather than taking pilots trained at GA schools.
If this practice escalates, then GA schools will find that the reduction in the number of students (because it is not longer a way into commercial aviation) and in the number of instructors (because you won't have pilots interested in building hours in order to get into the industry) will mean that many schools will close. Few schools would survive if their only market was training pilots for GA. Thus the infrastructure that exists to prepare pilots for commercial aviation is used by those wishing to be GA pilots. Obviously some economy of scale exists here, meaning that it would be more expensive to train as a GA pilot if commercial aviation pilot training was done outside the flying school industry.

Airports.
We have all heard stories about museums on airport grounds that have had to move/close because of the increasing demands of commercial aviation. Airports are a business, and they do whatever makes them money. If commercial aviation wasn't around to pay some of the bills, do you think that airports would continue with GA picking up the costs? Or would the airport business decide to move into the property development business and make more money.

Infrastructure.
Fuel distribution, aircraft manufacturing and other associated industries rely on a certain level of demand to remain viable. If commercial aviation didn't exist or no longer required those products, do you think they would still be supplied at current locations and prices?


Just out of interest, how many activities flourished when the commercial aspect declined?

I also agree with the general tone of the thread that commercial aviation looks after it's own interests to the detriment of associated segments of the industry.

Cheers,

Brett

[JDK]

Good point Brett.

Airports.
We have all heard stories about museums on airport grounds that have had to move/close because of the increasing demands of commercial aviation. Airports are a business, and they do whatever makes them money. If commercial aviation wasn't around to pay some of the bills, do you think that airports would continue with GA picking up the costs? Or would the airport business decide to move into the property development business and make more money.

The assumption that GA is based mainly in 'airports' rather than 'airfields' may be true in some ways, but there's an awful lot of airfields (around the world) with no scheduled or freight services. Certainly the ones I like.

Infrastructure.
Fuel distribution, aircraft manufacturing and other associated industries rely on a certain level of demand to remain viable. If commercial aviation didn't exist or no longer required those products, do you think they would still be supplied at current locations and prices?

The existence of people flying W.W.I aircraft and W.W.II aircraft shows that in certain other aspects of infrastructure, 'small' groups can make it work. Fuel crises in terms of fuel for certain vintage types is an issue being addressed in the UK. Likewise getting new tyres (for instance) in short runs... People will put up or quit on prices. As I said, most foreigners are shocked by UK petrol prices, but it's not a main restriction on any aspect of life (despite the complaints). Like cigarettes really...

Who knows, if GA had to be taken more seriously we'd stop having fields full over antique Cessna 172s, and get some more modern cans. What other aspect of life relies on such antiquated main equipment? The London underground?

Regards,

[muddyboots]

James, those small groups are beling supported by the larger infrastructure paid for by...you guessed it. If that went away WIX would be dead in a week. All the mom and pop airfields around the world would dry up as well. It would be a rich man's vocation, no longer reachable by the upper middle class. This is similar to all the libertarians who arue that tere should be no government at all. Okay, well, you should quit going to the doctor. And your mechanic. And no more driving. And don't run your dishwasher, or your hair dryer. Don't eat anything you didn't cook over charcoal you dug out of the ground. Because today, ALL of that was supported in research, development, transport to the store, and sale to you--by a government. Sure we all hate governemnts. But would you REALLY want to go without one?

[JDK]

James, those small groups are beling supported by the larger infrastructure paid for by...you guessed it. If that went away WIX would be dead in a week. All the mom and pop airfields around the world would dry up as well. It would be a rich man's vocation, no longer reachable by the upper middle class.

I remain unconvinced. I buy the military - airline R&D development link. (B-52, 707) Freight is an issue, etc, but I don't buy a flat causal 'support by infrastructure'. Yes, you can argue that, and you can argue the price GA pays for in in other ways is too high.

In other words, it's a qualitative as well as quantitative issue. The airline biz is rather like a dinosaur in that it wrecks a lot while providing sugar for the insects to live off. Great. Let's evolve into something that doesn't need dino sugar.

As to things keeling over - sometimes; but other times things change shape in ways we can't predict. Remember there's no sound economic reason to fly vintage aircraft and warbirds at all; but people do, creating an infrastructure, perhaps itself supported by bigger business, but certainly built and entirely dedicated to vintage & warbirds.

It's moot as the airlines and freight aren't going to vanish overnight.

It This is similar to all the libertarians who arue that tere should be no government at all.

The technical political term is 'anarchist'. Not actually bomb throwing loonies, but people who don't want any governance. But we are well off topic!

Regards,

[bdk]

James, those small groups are beling supported by the larger infrastructure paid for by...you guessed it. If that went away WIX would be dead in a week. All the mom and pop airfields around the world would dry up as well. It would be a rich man's vocation, no longer reachable by the upper middle class. This is similar to all the libertarians who arue that tere should be no government at all. Okay, well, you should quit going to the doctor. And your mechanic. And no more driving. And don't run your dishwasher, or your hair dryer. Don't eat anything you didn't cook over charcoal you dug out of the ground. Because today, ALL of that was supported in research, development, transport to the store, and sale to you--by a government. Sure we all hate governemnts. But would you REALLY want to go without one?

I think you need to travel to rural Nebraska. The infrastructure there IS general aviation with only a few exceptions. The one or two commuter flights daily to some airports is insufficent to maintain their viability without general aviation.

http://www.avmechseminar.org/index.html

http://www.avmechseminar.org/page7.html

I suggest you do some reading on libertarians as well: http://www.theadvocates.org/

As James suggests, you are describing anarchists who are not even remotely similar (either that or ALL the founding fathers were anarchists as well).

Do you really hate your government? I don't, that IS anarchy!

How is a doctor brought to you by the government?

You must be kidding? All our food was developed by the government?

[muddyboots]

I think you need to travel to rural Nebraska. The infrastructure there IS general aviation with only a few exceptions. The one or two commuter flights daily to some airports is insufficent to maintain their viability without general aviation.

Uh huh. And where did the vast mojority of the men and women who fly and work as mechanics, air traffic controlers and flight line attendants get their training? Why is AvGas and Jet fuelk commonly avaiable? Name ONE aspect of the GenAv community and I can link it by one or two steps to ComAv either in direct expenitures or indirect results of.

I suggest you do some reading on libertarians as well: http://www.theadvocates.org/

I suggest you do yourself. I was a political scie major before i became an anthropologist. Anarchy is indeed a sub branch of libertaianism. Sort of a fundementalist. or extremist, but a libertarian non the less. You can even look it up. Only don't use a libertairan source--they tend to be skittish about admitting it

As James suggests, you are describing anarchists who are not even remotely similar (either that or ALL the founding fathers were anarchists as well).

Erm...not at all.

Do you really hate your government? I don't, that IS anarchy!

Certainly I hate much of what it does. I'd be insane not to. But I also love it. I ove what it has done in terms of supporting scientific, medical, electrical, power, education, atc. Do I like that it has help corporations dominate and subjugate peope by invasion, or that it has in the past supported slavery, and racism? No. I'd have to be insane to.

How is a doctor brought to you by the government?

He was most likely put through medical school on loans or grants of the government. His hospital is largely funded by the government. Research into the medicine he practices is paid for outright by goverment. All of the medicine he uses to heal you was partially finded by governemnt in terms of reeearch. And finally, almost all of the basic knowledge of modern medine in America was orgamized, funded, and researched by governemnt doctors doing so at the behest of the government at the trun of the century.

You must be kidding? All our food was developed by the government

No. But most of it was subsidized by our government. The roads and rail it is got to you by is paid for and kept up by our government. So unless you plan to start a garden, I suggest you keep paying your taxes.

Why is it that there's always someone who wants to ignore what I say in order to make thier own point? BDK, Please lets not get into a huge political argument again?