I think I am losing my mind...

mustanglover · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:03 pm

Mike wrote:

n5151ts wrote:

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics.

Then you must have been watching a different race from many of the rest of us! :shock:

rwdfresno wrote:

My dad just sold his L-29 to Pete Taylor. They are re-engining it to fly it at Reno.

Does anyone seriously believe that we'll ever see the jets racing at Reno again?

Sure they will. RARA will just make em use restrictor plates to slow em down.

Seriously, if that would have happened coming into the last pylon it would have been a different story all together.

n5151ts · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:39 pm

Mike wrote:

n5151ts wrote:

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics.

Then you must have been watching a different race from many of the rest of us! :shock:

rwdfresno wrote:

My dad just sold his L-29 to Pete Taylor. They are re-engining it to fly it at Reno.

Does anyone seriously believe that we'll ever see the jets racing at Reno again?

we have lost several WWII aircraft over the years and at least one very complex purpose bilt UNLIMITED and yet we still do it.
Like it or not jets are all some of the folks come to see, and as far as that goes its all they know about. They are typically the younger group and they have no knowledge of what their grandfather did in WW II.... That being said, MANY of them come to see the jets but then also get exposed to the "big Iron" and get excited enough to start learning history. Some of them might even start respecting their elders a bit more and realize that the world is the way it is because their then 19 year old grandpa did indeed fly a B-17 into harms way.

</climbs down off of soap boX>

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:49 pm

n5151ts wrote:

Mike wrote:

n5151ts wrote:

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics.

Then you must have been watching a different race from many of the rest of us! :shock:

rwdfresno wrote:

My dad just sold his L-29 to Pete Taylor. They are re-engining it to fly it at Reno.

Does anyone seriously believe that we'll ever see the jets racing at Reno again?

we have lost several WWII aircraft over the years and at least one very complex purpose bilt UNLIMITED and yet we still do it.
Like it or not jets are all some of the folks come to see, and as far as that goes its all they know about. They are typically the younger group and they have no knowledge of what their grandfather did in WW II.... That being said, MANY of them come to see the jets but then also get exposed to the "big Iron" and get excited enough to start learning history. Some of them might even start respecting their elders a bit more and realize that the world is the way it is because their then 19 year old grandpa did indeed fly a B-17 into harms way.

</climbs down off of soap boX>

n5151ts, I couldn't agree with you more. Any kind of exposure to aviation can lead young people into an interest that can spread in many different directions. When I first started going to Oshkosh, all I was interested in was the warbirds. Then I started to like the vintage stuff, and now I am hooked on everything. I also think that we will see jets at Reno again. You can't let one crash stop everything. If that was the case, we would have been done flying in 1903.

n5151ts · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:41 pm

T33driver wrote:

n5151ts wrote:

{If it makes your heart go pitter patter or your wife's heart go thumpety thump thump or your girlfriend's heart....or both....ok never mind, just buy the jet if it makes the itch go away. Have you flown one before to see if it's to your liking?}

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics. I haven't flown hi-perf jets since linebacker 2 so maybe I don't have the right stuff anymore but Im thinking I need to do the jet warbird training thing and see!

In case you flew in the USAF, the L-29 is pretty much commie Tweet as far as performance.

I will meet you on the green, pistols or sabres the choice is yours!

Mike · **Joined:** Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am **Posts:** 3333

mustanglover wrote:

Seriously, if that would have happened coming into the last pylon it would have been a different story all together.

Which is EXACTLY why I very much doubt that we will see the jets back at Reno in any shape or form. After this year's carnage, they just can't risk an accident of that magnitude.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:27 pm

One thing that must remain sacred is crowd safety, at Reno and shows. We must not violate the show line or dead line. Can the jets do this safely? If not something needs to change, BEFORE any plane goes into a crowd. Is there anything inherent about these jets that makes them less safe? Stall behavior, control in wake turbulence? Or the pilots? They are now going about as fast as the unlimiteds. Many of the race pilots are tops, the jet guys need to be also. There have been a number of accidents in other classes, but usually not at these speeds. Do the jets need a bigger or different course? I did not see the accident, I am just thinking of what I read.

Mike · **Joined:** Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am **Posts:** 3333

Bill Greenwood wrote:

They are now going about as fast as the unlimiteds.

Bill, they're now going considerably faster than the Unlimiteds. As I said, I doubt they'll be back next year. If they are, and having watched them this year, I shall personally dig myself a BIG hole and hide in it until after they've flown. It was just scary to watch them come off that last pylon, and the accident which followed ought to be enough to ensure that the crowd are NEVER put at risk in that way again. The fact that the accident, and debris path, fell parallel with the crowdline rather than straight into the pits and grandstands was pure fluke,

T33driver · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:38 pm

n5151ts wrote:

T33driver wrote:

n5151ts wrote:

{If it makes your heart go pitter patter or your wife's heart go thumpety thump thump or your girlfriend's heart....or both....ok never mind, just buy the jet if it makes the itch go away. Have you flown one before to see if it's to your liking?}

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics. I haven't flown hi-perf jets since linebacker 2 so maybe I don't have the right stuff anymore but Im thinking I need to do the jet warbird training thing and see!

In case you flew in the USAF, the L-29 is pretty much commie Tweet as far as performance.

I will meet you on the green, pistols or sabres the choice is yours!

Hey, I flew the Tweet in pilot training and loved it! In fact, a buddy of mine is likely gonna own one soon so I'll be chasing one around the skies of Wisconsin by the end of the year hopefully...more on that later....

MX304 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:51 pm

There was another "almost" accident in the jet class as well. During a Sat heat race, the T-33 suffered a controlability problem which resulted in him flying straight off the last pylon and directly over the west end of the pits. We later found out his aileron hydraulics had locked momentarily. :shock:

I was really looking forward to the jet class being open to multiple types, and the Viper engined 517mph L-29 in particular. However, after all the near misses, deadline cuts, and accident. I too will stay as far away from that action as possible. I watched the remaining jet class races this year from the far east end of the field.

n5151ts · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:07 pm

when Bill Spears crashed he was heading directly at the back of the pit area....Earl Ketchan dead sticked HABU onto the taxi way....IF Gary Levits had suffered his catastrophic air frame failure at pylon 8 he would have gone in to the pits. RACING is dangerous if you are afraid --- don't come----nothing quite like standing on the ramp and looking up to see a black p-51 coming right at you to get the old ticker pumping.

n5151ts · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:26 pm

T33driver wrote:

n5151ts wrote:

T33driver wrote:

n5151ts wrote:

{If it makes your heart go pitter patter or your wife's heart go thumpety thump thump or your girlfriend's heart....or both....ok never mind, just buy the jet if it makes the itch go away. Have you flown one before to see if it's to your liking?}

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics. I haven't flown hi-perf jets since linebacker 2 so maybe I don't have the right stuff anymore but Im thinking I need to do the jet warbird training thing and see!

In case you flew in the USAF, the L-29 is pretty much commie Tweet as far as performance.

I will meet you on the green, pistols or sabres the choice is yours!

Hey, I flew the Tweet in pilot training and loved it! In fact, a buddy of mine is likely gonna own one soon so I'll be chasing one around the skies of Wisconsin by the end of the year hopefully...more on that later....

just kidding...I think.....

Beachy · **Joined:** Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:20 am **Posts:** 1104

T33 Paul, just out of curiosity, did you ever spend any time at Laughlin AFB?

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:07 pm

Quote, "racing is dangerous". Sure, whether it is Reno or Indy. Maybe even the tiger act in the casino. But the danger should be for the participants, not the public who did not agree to risk their life. The planes should stay on the course, the cars on the track, and the tigers stay out of the crowd. We have had a great record of spectator safety over 45 years at airshows. If you do not care about the public, then maybe you care about the future of the races. If a jet goes into the crowd, I don't think the public or the feds are going to have a callous or blase attitude about public safety. There won't be any more races like that.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Mike and Mx304: It sounds like you think it is too dangerous for the jets to race there. Why? Is it the speed is to high or they don't turn well enough, or a pilot problem? As for speed faster than the Unlimiteds, what is the fastest L-39 lap? I am pretty sure Rare Bear has lapped over 490, and Strega over 480, and that is real speed before they computer adjusted the timing as they do now.. Do you guys also think the Unlimiteds are unsafe?

n5151ts · **Posted:** Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:55 pm

give me a break there Bill....thats classic sensationalist journalism if I have ever seen it.

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