Lake Michigan recoveries - some pics

[51fixer]

Those pictures are amazing. It's crazy to think that there are still so many airframes down in the deep.

What would be the worst that could happen if someone were to totally ignore the navy and recover the airplanes?

The way I see it, the Navy might steal them away from the people who recovered it, but would probably then store them, or even restore them to some sort of preserved state.

Obviously it would be a loss for the people recovering them, but at least we could all sleep well knowing that they're not at the bottom of a lake or ocean anymore.

Or...... would you get put in jail for recovering them?

-David

If you have a relative who is a good lawyer or a pile of cash to give to a lawyer you might have a chance.
Through a friend I was shown pictures of a clandastine mission to an Alaskian island. The pics showed Army truck and white pickups parked in a hangar. Place was abandoned in the early 70s as I recall. From a dump many WWII parts were recovered, some new in wooded crates. After recovering these objects they were forced to turn them over to the FBI or face arrest and jail time.
Different story- Someone who came through POF Museum one time showed me some pics taken by this guy's brother in law. He was on a forward deployment excersise to some remote Alaskian island with his P-3 and crew. They found a large depression in the earth with sections of buried aircraft sticking out of the ground. One photo was a guy leaning against the vertical of a P-38 growing out of the earth. After the war they dug a hole and pushed the aircraft into it and covered them up with dirt.
Rich

[RickH]

I've seen some of those same pictures 51 fixer. The guy who took them is an old man now, can hardly get around now.

Reminds me of an old packrat, he's thrown away more poo poo than I'll ever own !

[snj-5]

The numbers were posted here once. There were 110 or so aircraft of which 10-15 had been recovered. There is a flying F4F that was there that is civilian among others.

There are 70 SNJ aircraft, and the remaining 40 or so are F4F, SBD and One F4U....

That's a cryin' shame... I know the type isn't exactly rare with hundreds flying world-wide, but leaving 70 SNJs on the lake bottom(s) because of some ill-conceived policy is really unfortunate....

Bela P. Havasreti

[RMAllnutt]

Yes, a topic beaten repeatedly; but one hopefully that will not die.

I'd like to reiterate (slightly) something James mentioned in his post--that he presumes a majority of what has been recovered has been conserved in some form. For the most part that is true; however, I've been led to believe that a considerable amount of recovered material has also been scrapped.

In 2005, I photographed the remains of the last SB2A the Navy recovered from Tullahoma to Pensacola. Later I received reports that a few bits were pulled off those remains (to complete the SB2A project now on display in the museum), and that the rest was then scrapped. Is anyone able to confirm this report?

Yes, this is true, sadly. They cut the wings off to get it to Pensacola, and then took the thing apart to get one or two pieces for themselves, and a couple of crates (small ones) for the restoration project at Pima. The rest was scrapped. It seemed a real shame to me as, while very battered and incomplete, the Tullahoma Buccaneer was a really cool looking artifact by itself. Oh well... what to do?

Richard

[mlenoch]

Curiosity: Did any enviromentalist groups ever complain about the aircraft left in Lake Michigan? Old aircraft would seep toxic fluids and cause enviromental harm; was this argument ever presented to the Navy?
Thx,
VL

[51fixer]

Curiosity: Did any enviromentalist groups ever complain about the aircraft left in Lake Michigan? Old aircraft would seep toxic fluids and cause enviromental harm; was this argument ever presented to the Navy?
Thx,
VL

This could be a double edge sword. Now they would be toxic waste sites which the gov/ epa contractor would tag and bag to be disposed of and would again revert to the gov for disposal.
Rich

[Nathan]

Curiosity: Did any enviromentalist groups ever complain about the aircraft left in Lake Michigan? Old aircraft would seep toxic fluids and cause enviromental harm; was this argument ever presented to the Navy?
Thx,
VL

This could be a double edge sword. Now they would be toxic waste sites which the gov/ epa contractor would tag and bag to be disposed of and would again revert to the gov for disposal.
Rich

I was thinking the same thing. Get the enviormentists out and they will pass a law that all aircraft wrecks need to be destroyed! If they casue a threat to the enviroment. This owuld be the worst case. At lest the Navy WANTS to preserve them.

[warbird1]

The numbers were posted here once. There were 110 or so aircraft of which 10-15 had been recovered. There is a flying F4F that was there that is civilian among others.

There are 70 SNJ aircraft, and the remaining 40 or so are F4F, SBD and One F4U....

There was at least one more Vought Vindicator down there too, besides the one that was restored at Pensacola. Anyone know if there are any plans to recover that one?

[warbird1]

Curiosity: Did any enviromentalist groups ever complain about the aircraft left in Lake Michigan? Old aircraft would seep toxic fluids and cause enviromental harm; was this argument ever presented to the Navy?
Thx,
VL

Yes, everyone's favorite activist, Rob Rohr, presented such an argument. He talked about it in a past thread. I don't know whether he actually presented it to the Navy, however. Like other's have said, that might not be the best approach to this situation. What's really needed is some high powered lawyer to challenge the Navy. Hey, isn't Jim Beasley a lawyer... hint, hint......

[tulsaboy]

Honestly, what I think is neded in this situation is a warbird-friendly legislator who would be willing to push a very small piece of legislation that would provide congressional authorization for the recovery of those aircraft. It could even be Great-Lakes specific, to allow recovery of just those aircraft. I would suggest that it even protect/preserve the National Museum of Naval Aviation's interest in those aircraft, by requiring any salvager to fund the cost of recovering two aircraft, and allowing NMNA their choice of the aircraft. This would ensure that rare aircraft (like the birdcage Corsair) would be preserved for the public, but would also reward the salvager. If there really are two TBDs down there (as some have mentioned) the NMNA would get one and the salvager would get one. I see this as a "win-win" situation. I think that a lot of other museums would benefit as well, because the NMNA's SBDs seem to have been slowly dispersed to various museums around the country, and have been restored by those museums. It has resulted in a lot more of these rare aircraft being recovered, restored and on display around the country for more young eyes to see. I'd love to hear others' thoughts and comments on this idea. I think it has some merit, could be refined, and would be an excellent balance to protect the public's interest while rewarding private entrepreneurship.

kevin

[n5151ts]

No, the Navy insists that they not be saved. Current philsophy is to let them sit on the bottom of the ocean or lake for hundreds of more years, so future archeaologists can observe the colored aluminum oxide that used to be an airplane.

by action or tea party which ever they prefer.....who gave these guys the power anyway? I paid for at least one of those things by my self....

[DoraNineFan]

[quote="RickH"]I've been told by the guy who recovered these aircraft for the Navy that there is a birdcage Corsair and one or two other aircraft worthy of salvage. He said that the others they found have been severely damaged by the Zebra mussels and that after the 3 recoveries planned there will be no more.

/quote]

So, in other words, it's too late (or nearly too late) and the mussels have begun destroying the airframes? The recoveries in the pictures are just a decade old. Without starting any flamewars, I only wish more forward-thinking policies had been in place then. And I suppose that it's an environmental mine field and a losing battle to find the important airframes and remove or poison the mussels as a means of conservation--not that it's going to make much difference in the long run.