warbirds for sale on the open market are slim

[DB2]

Great post mgeorge...I think the key message for those who bemoan their inability to purchase and operate a warbird is that "risk and reward are inextricably linked".

[Bill Greenwood]

I think the majority of us that are lucky enough to own a warbird certainly appreciate it. Like Parenthood, if you have to ask the cost, you may not be focusing on where the fun is. I'd love to see more people get into aviation, it doesn't have to be a fighter. You can buy a flying Champ for $30k. I have seen guys driving around in a $40,000 SUV or fancy pickup truck while saying they could not affort to fly. Groups like CAF have sponsorships for $20k or even half that. Most groups and musems would love to have another volunteer, and good work and paitience can lead to flight time. In 24 years, I'd guess I have washed my plane a 100 times, probably 85 of them by myself. Sure have lot of volunteer riders for free, though. Then there is glider flying, also the new Sport Pilot catgegory, where the license is shorter and cheaper to obtain.I have also found a lot of folks don't really want to be a pilot, but enjoy being a part of avialtion.

[bdk]

I have been pursuing buying a T-6 for about the last 4-5 years with varying levels of intensity. Buy-in prices have increased $50,000 on average in that span and operating costs have nearly doubled. Although I could probably find someone to give me a loan for that much, I doubt I could afford to fly it without "blowing" what I have in savings and various investments. I could afford to fly it for maybe another 4-5 years before I started eating into other areas of the budget that, for the other members of my family, are not on the table for re-directing into an airplane.

Regarding loans, you need to do that in reverse and save the money first and then buy. That's what my wife and I do for buying new cars. We haven't had any outstanding loan balance other than our house in over 10 years.

I have already spent more in hangar rent than my T-6 project will be worth when it is finally finished. Granted I haven't been actively restoring it the whole time, but still a project is a bad deal financially and I challenge you to make a profit that way. If I had put away the money I was paying monthly in hangar rent for the duration of my restoration effort I could have bought a nicely restored T-6 by now and be flying to my heart's content, watching my investment appreciate hopefully faster than I am wearing it out.

You need to have discipline and a plan, which I didn't have when I got the bug. I also thought I was a smart guy and could restore the plane for less than I could buy one already restored. Of course in the time I've had the project the cost of parts, engine overhaul, hangar rent, etc. have gone up substantially. I'm smarter now, I just hope that someone learns from my mistakes and captures the experience of what I have done right.

You can take out the loan and pay the bank, or save the money ahead of time for the plane you can't afford right now and let that money work for you. I would have been far better off doing the latter.

My plan was to work my way up in steps with a fighter after the T-6, but those are just as far out of reach as ever. The T-6 may have gone up in value the same percentage as a Mustang, but my income hasn't so that $500K Mustang that was not affordable 15 years ago is now a $1.5M Mustang that is ever farther out of reach.

Megabux lottery, here I come!

[marine air]

Some of the warbirds have become a favorite of the"ticket punchers's" in life. A lot of superwealthy want to mark certain items on their list as haing been checked off as "must haves". So the price of the P-51, Corsair, Spitfire and Bearcat have gotten beyond reason. WHy would you pay $2 mill. for a high performance warbird when you can get the equivalent performance from a Sea Fury or big engined T-28 for less than half the cost?
So the premium items on the ticket puncher's lists will continue to skyrocket in value. Then there's a ceiling for warbirds not on that list; $900k for Wildcats, the Fiat G-59, Lagg 3, FLug Werk FW-190, and some P-40's. There's a ceiling on the multi-engine warbirds of around $400K. About the same for russian fighters like the Polikarpov, Yak-3 etc. Why is the Yak 3/7 one/ fifth the price of a Bearcat which has little military history when the Yak represents a wartime type?
So I have my little war chest growing for the day, before age 60, that I may get to buy something that would be exciting to own, and I have written off the airplanes on the TP list.
You know what are going to be the best deals in the next ten years? Beech 18's, Staggerwings, Gull Wing Stinsons, and many of the fabric covered jewels like the N3n, Waco's, Travelairs, Gull Wing Stinsons, Travelair's etc. These have been horded by the WW II and Korean era guys and there will be some really nice airplanes become available.
I am in my mid 40's and there just aren't any people my age or younger that have the rare blend of interest, flying ability, money and cash flow to buy and operate these airplanes.

[EDowning]

A couple of observations......

Tom Friedman wrote:

the average person has no expendable income due to a crap economy??

Actually strongest U.S. economic growth over the last 5 years, in last 20 years, with the exception of Michigan, which is suffering a virtual recession due to years of poor governance.

If you really want a warbird, attitude toward the goal has to be positive.

Item #2. As Bill stated, the CAF is a viable option for most people. I will say that with some notable exceptions, most of the people who lament not being able to afford one of the larger warbirds, probably would have a very difficult time getting insurance on one, because of the experience required to check out. Focus on building the quality tailwheel time required while you are pursuing the means to aquire your dream.

Item #3. I had $1690 in Feb 88 when I got out of the Army. I didn,t fly an hour for 7 years after getting out of the Army because I couldn't afford to rent a C-152. In the last 10 years I have bought a bonanza and 3 warbirds. It can happen, but only if you are in a carreer path where the top people make huge incomes. The point is, no matter how great of a whatever you are, there has to be the potential, that if you do make it to the top that you get wealthy. Lesson here, it can happen for you, but probably won't if you just keep doing what you have always done and hope for a different outcome.

Item #4. As many of you know (or may not) I am in the investmant management business. The economy is actually quite good, even in this "crap economy" it has been possible to double your investable net worth in the last six years, wheter that is going from 5k to 10K or 5 mil to 10 mil. Not easy, but doable if you are diligent and disciplined. I know because I've done it.

Item #5. Marine Air is right on the money about types. I'm not fond of the "TP" concept, but the reality is that some types are going to carry a "heritage premimum" that others are not. I think the Sea Fury and the C-45 are both underpriced and I intend to add one of each in the next couple of years.

Item #6. Beware of the most pounds of airplane for the dollar concept. The ADs and T-Birds, T-28s, MIGs etc. are very cheap to aquire but very, very expensive to operate.

Item #7. The AT-6 is the absolute most bang for the buck for where it gets you and what you can do with it. It moves you along the path to fly the bigger airplanes, is reasonably cheap to operate, respected, and above all else, FUN.

Just my thoughts and experiences, worth exactly what you had to pay for them. (maybe less, if you are a slow reader, like Bill Greenwood)

[Christer]

A thought or two from a "nobody" in the warbird community:

It seems like there are two values to a warbird, a real value and an imaginary value.

The real value is easy to calculate; just add the costs you've had. If you do a lot of the work yourself, you set the price of your time yourself and the cost may be lower than for a commercial rebuild.

The imaginary value is what people think it's worth and that depends on a lot of factors such as historically significant type, wartime record, flown by Mr. Somebody but it doesn't seem to reflect the real value. In reverse, the imaginary value has no impact on the real value.

Now, two lucky guys each find a project, a Spitfire and a Sea Fury. Both projects are in the same condition but in need of a total rebuild and they are both rebuilt commercially to the same standards.

Would there be any appreciable difference in the cost for the rebuild of the respective aircraft (real value)?

If not, the guy who bought the Sea Fury is not as lucky as the guy who bought the Spitfire since, as stated in a previous post, the imaginary value of a Sea Fury is half that of a Spitfire.

Ten years ago, a friend said that if you build a restaurant from scratch, it takes two owners and two bankruptcies to make it possible for the third owner to make ends meet. Maybe it's the same with Warbirds.

End of rant,
Christer

[T-6G Pilot]

I have had success having partners on my T-6. I know this is something that is hard to come by as it takes the right personalities but its definitely worth trying. If anyone ever wants advice on setting it up or some of my dos & don'ts I'd be happy to give my two cents.

Mike

mike.hogan@landmarkaviation.com

[Mark V]

imaginary value of a Sea Fury is half that of a Spitfire.

I don't think it would be as much as that.

[T33driver]

Gotta agree the T-6 is the most bang for the buck and I wouldn't be surprised if I became involved in a WIXer T-6 partnership at my home airport in the future (youz guys know who you are). I've seen successful airplane partnerships and an arrangement like that would really put something like a T-6 into the reach of a lot of pilots. T-6/Harvard owner buds of mine have a lot of success getting airshows and other flyby event officials to reiumburse for fuel so if one gets resourceful and pounds the pavement, you can get a lot of fuel sponsored. I get tons of airshow fuel reimbursed during the summer, have two hangar tenants, and am often taking someone's brother-in-law or bud for a T-33 ride so long as they pay for fuel (my biggest expense) and promise not to hurl. I've known a couple budget conscious (I'm not kidding) MiG-17 owners that perform at airshows and consequently got all of their annual operating costs sponsored on someone else's nickel and made some money to boot. Anyway, some good thoughts on this thread on some lower cost avenues to warbird flying--CAF sponsorship and partnerships.

Last edited by T33driver on Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Randy Haskin]

Unfortunately the T-6 isn't quite as "frugal" an option currently as it once was, even somewhat recently. When I first started looking, very nice examples could be had for sub-$100K - $130K. Now, the "cheap" never-restored Spanish returns are going for $130, and the cherry Midwest Texan aircraft are going for $250K!!!

I agree the T-6 is a great option, and I want to get into one...but every time I can "afford" to buy one (and operate it, of course) the price inches up another notch.

Partnership is probably where I'm going to have to look...but as a military guy who moves once every 3 years (and is currently overseas) that makes things pretty tough.

Last edited by Randy Haskin on Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Tim Savage]

Now, the "cheap" never-restored Spanish returns are going for $130, and the cherry Midwest Texan aircraft are going for $250K!!!.

Actually, our restored airplanes are over $300k. There are lot of good airplanes in the 130-150k range, but those under that are more than likely going to need some work.

[Randy Haskin]

Now, the "cheap" never-restored Spanish returns are going for $130, and the cherry Midwest Texan aircraft are going for $250K!!!.

Actually, our restored airplanes are over $300k. There are lot of good airplanes in the 130-150k range, but those under that are more than likely going to need some work.

Precisely my point...further complicating things are the corrosion issues that you pointed out in your WD article. Makes things pretty dismal looking.

[jaybird]

Now wait a second Randy, the last time I heard, you were GETTING PAID while flying one of the greatest warbirds of all time! My only regret thus far in life is that I didn't see my AF ROTC scholarship all the way through to an office seat just like yours (a long story I won't dive into now). My only condolence will be to one day find myself alone at altitude with a Corsair stick in the right hand, and the throttle in the left. If you never attain your Mustang, you've still got an impressive logbook. .......going back into depression now thinking about the F-15 that slipped away

[tom d. friedman]

yeah.... i f'd up my career too due to bad choices, randy you've got it made by your own doing. i salute you!! your keester sits where very few venture!!

[Project Warbird]

I was told by someone 7 years ago that I could never get into the warbird world. (It cost to much, you have never worked with airplanes, it's out of your league, HAHA to you ) That's the kind of stuff I got when I said (I wanted my own Warbird). Well NUTS!!!!!!

So I worked for one year, saved all the money I could. Then quit my job, volunteered at a Museum, and worked with the old timers. They taught me the in's and out's of restoring planes. I was lucky to work with the guys that built them. Then I bought a T-6D project from the CAF. Started to restore it and then sold it a year later for 4 times what I paid. Bought other projects, sold them and so on. I started restoring planes for other people, ( Stearmans, T-6's, some fighter work)

Now I have a new SNJ-5 project for myself. I don't think of it as an investment. I also don't care about the cost. I look at it this way ( I'm making lots of friends that share the same passion, I get the satisfaction from working on the planes, it's a treassure hunt for the parts, I get to fly in warbirds, goto airshows, hang around the airport all the time, and JUST LIVE MY DREAM)

I know that I'm lucky. I have made the choice to live my dreams and I know that anyone that wants it bad enough, can do it also. You just have to make that choice.

There are many ways to work with warbirds. You just have to find the correct way for you.