Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:53 pm
Hello JDK,
Keep in mind how simple the WW II flying boats were in construction. They had to be able to be maintained while at sea. No flaps , no pressurization systems, no heaters on the early PBY's, no flaps, no landing gear and hydraulics, many old flying boats were just cables and tubes to the control surfaces, no hydraulic boosts, very light weight and simple for reliability. That's how they were able to fly off the water with those cavernous fuselages, and such small engine hp. by todays standards.
Keep in mind how simple the WW II flying boats were in construction. They had to be able to be maintained while at sea. No flaps , no pressurization systems, no heaters on the early PBY's, no flaps, no landing gear and hydraulics, many old flying boats were just cables and tubes to the control surfaces, no hydraulic boosts, very light weight and simple for reliability. That's how they were able to fly off the water with those cavernous fuselages, and such small engine hp. by todays standards.
Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:37 pm
Hi Marine Air,
Again a good point, but as you know we are talking how things are, not how they should be, and you are right, but it's demonstrably not helped. Few flying boats flying today are the 1939 model. While early W.W.II era marine aircraft were sometimes very simple, they got as complex as landplanes pretty quickly. Having toured the Martin Mars, that's a pretty impressive piece of kit, and the Mariner is not nearly as large, but in systems terms would, I presume relate.
Be that as it may, it's not systems that decide against restorations starting (they're usually a later 'problem' or 'challenge' and do stop restorations being completed) but the need to build a usually relatively unique structure back up, and a spar's a spar, and corrosion is a problem in such places, as is a bent spar or major structure, usually the case on these large, crashed and submersed aircraft.
A good recent example is the B-23 Dragon at Midland. A (relatively) rare and important type, it's not the systems that prevent restoration, it's the depth of structural repairs and rebuild that are problematic. Even here in WIX there wasn't enough enthusiasm to make it happen (were it the world's last B-25, maybe...) and certainly no commitment to spend exponentially more cash on it than it could ever be valued at.
It's tough, and amazing jobs are done, but the numbers tell the story. We should just perhaps be grateful for Grumman building such good useful seaplanes and that they just keep 'sailing on'. Even more amazing (that they're around) are the Sikorsky S-38, S-39 and 42 out there.
Regards,
Again a good point, but as you know we are talking how things are, not how they should be, and you are right, but it's demonstrably not helped. Few flying boats flying today are the 1939 model. While early W.W.II era marine aircraft were sometimes very simple, they got as complex as landplanes pretty quickly. Having toured the Martin Mars, that's a pretty impressive piece of kit, and the Mariner is not nearly as large, but in systems terms would, I presume relate.
Be that as it may, it's not systems that decide against restorations starting (they're usually a later 'problem' or 'challenge' and do stop restorations being completed) but the need to build a usually relatively unique structure back up, and a spar's a spar, and corrosion is a problem in such places, as is a bent spar or major structure, usually the case on these large, crashed and submersed aircraft.
A good recent example is the B-23 Dragon at Midland. A (relatively) rare and important type, it's not the systems that prevent restoration, it's the depth of structural repairs and rebuild that are problematic. Even here in WIX there wasn't enough enthusiasm to make it happen (were it the world's last B-25, maybe...) and certainly no commitment to spend exponentially more cash on it than it could ever be valued at.
It's tough, and amazing jobs are done, but the numbers tell the story. We should just perhaps be grateful for Grumman building such good useful seaplanes and that they just keep 'sailing on'. Even more amazing (that they're around) are the Sikorsky S-38, S-39 and 42 out there.
Regards,
Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:59 pm
I guess this pic answers the primary question.
It supposedly shows the remains of the PBM in question.
Now then...which salvage yard in the greater Chicago area still contains this beached whale?
It supposedly shows the remains of the PBM in question.
Now then...which salvage yard in the greater Chicago area still contains this beached whale?
Mariner
Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:54 am
How long were the Mariners in service? I have a commercial for the 1957 Chevrolet that was shot at Pensacola which features a couple of Naval officers standing in front of a silver amphibious Mariner (as well as a couple Grumman Panthers, and an SNJ in postwar markings landing on a carrier). I'll try to post some stills if anyone's interested.