Warbird Information Exchange

Wow. In combat the B-1 can do a flyby.

Impressive war machine, right there.

And here I just dropped 2 GBU-12s, 2 GBU-38s, and 1 GBU-31 on Taliban fighters today. Wish I could be a real "badass" like the B-1.

Yes, but the ground pounders like the big, impressive "show of force" displays as much as bombs hitting targets, especially when they don't know where the targets are. Side note- it seems that F-16s doing more of them than anyone else in the daily action reports that the DoD puts out. The B-1Bs typically drop a bunch of bombs then go home like everyone else with the occasional "show of force" after they're empty.

In Iraq, yes. There are no F-15Es currently operating in that theater...that might have something to do with it. Check out the OEF summaries.

Like this one, for example, on the front page of af.mil today:
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123064756

I'm still rolling my eyes that we're in an era where a flyby, er, "Show of Force", is considered a combat engagement. It goes in my post-mission report just like dropping a bomb or strafing.

Not aimed at the BONE guys, because it's the JTACs that ask for Shows of Force. Yeah, I've done my fair share of combat flybys, too. Even <gasp> dropped flares while doing it, too! I just scoff at the idiocy of a combat environment in which flybys are considered a weapon. It says..."hey bad guys, I'm here. I'm threatening to hurt you. I'm not REALLY hurting you, but I'm looking pretty badassed while I threaten do it."

Hey Randy are they still calling in B-52 air strikes as needed?

So...Randy after the flare drop and the subsequent "enemies gave up their position" did a worthwhile "use of force" happen to the "enemies"?

BTW ...Thanks for your work over there

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I looked a the AF.MIL page above. It makes me poud to be an American, READ ON:

In Afghanistan, F-15Es dropped GBU-38s and GBU-31s on enemy targets in Jalalabad. The aircrews confirmed the drops were successful. Some of the targets included firing positions and bunkers.

Also in Jalalabad, a B-1B dropped GBU-38s and GBU-31s on enemy positions. The drops were deemed successful.

A-10s fired rockets and cannon rounds at enemy positions also in Jalalabad. The pilots confirmed good hits.

A Navy EA-6B Prowler provided a successful show of force with multiple flares over Khowst.

.....


In Baquba, F-16s destroyed another booby-trapped house to help coalition forces continue clearing the area.



FIRST, I'm not real impressed with the SHOW OF FORCE by DROPPING FLARES, unless the bad guys were sitting in a gas station, or on something that would burn. Just wasting the crew's time and the govt's money.

Glad to know that it took F-16s to destroy a booby trapped house. I guess the infantry guys don't carry anything where they can destroy a house on their own, like a road flare, or Zippo lighter, or a nearby Abrams, Bradley, or a M2HB loaded with Incendary ammo.

Lastly, what does "THE DROPS WERE DEEMED SUCCESSFUL" actually mean? I mean, does that mean that the aircraft returned to base without bombs and hence they came off the aircraft and succesfull hit the ground. Not any specific part of the ground, but just good old terra firma.

COME ONE GUYS DRAFT SOME WRITERS.

Lets hear this:

"In Baquba, F-16s destroyed another booby-trapped house to help coalition forces continue clearing the area."

Turn into this:

In Baquba, rebel forces had occupied a fortifed position in a building cleverly disguised as a house. After several hours of intensive fighting (resulting in zero US casulties due to advanced tactics and body armor), the USAF was called in. Two F-16s came honking in from 62,000' at Mach 1.9 and unloaded 12 tons of precision guided ordinance that is so secret that we can't explain it here, totally destroying the reinforced concrete structure and sending the occupants on a express trip to meet Alah. Due to the blast damage it was hard to determine how many enemy fanatics were inside, but American soldiers recovered significant portions of 14 left thumbs (the largest body parts surviving the blast), leading analysts to the conclusion that at least 14 enemy soldiers had died.

No Americans were injued in the exchange. Immediately afterwards, nearly 300 more terrorists were spotted running for their lives out of town screaming "ALAH SAVE US" and they were quickly sent to meet ALAH by accurate rifle fire from trained American troops.

The American troops went on to help the civilian population who were greatful for our help ......


NOW THATS A WAR I WANT TO SUPPORT!!!!!!!!

Mark H

PS: Thanks Randy for your service

Couple of things -

First, DoD policy is not to reveal number of enemy casualties or the true extent of enemy damage.

Second, a "Show of Force" can be an extremely useful tool. I know most people see it as a "waste of time and money," but think of the following -

1) You are in a "low threat" air environment. No Eastern-Bloc style multi-layered air defense system, nothing but a few SA-7s and the occasional 7.62MM machine-gun. I don't think there's even been a report of actual taking of AA/AAA fire in over a year.

2) RoE states that you can't make a drop on a target not positively identified visually. If you're looking at a complex of houses and no one is outside and the guys on the ground can't see inside to know where the fire they're taking is coming from, how do you identify the target?

3) Some areas are not safe for ground troops to enter because of risk of IEDs and other devices. So, how do you find out where the bad guys are inside that area?

The answer to #2 and #3 is fly low and fast and make them come out, whether to shoot at you with a AK or to just try to clear his head from the loud noise and pressure burst he just experienced. Then they're thinking about things other than the guys downrange on the ground who are just as much a threat to them.

Also, we know what flares are and what they do. The average civilian (or 3rd world militant) don't. They see a big ball of fire coming from the airplane, they're thinking it's either a weapon or a marker for the weapons so they're afraid and either run or come out and try to stop the plane, even though they can't.

Are you talking about OEF or OIF? In OEF there have been plenty of hostile surface-to-air events over the time I've been deployed here, but I can't talk specifics because of OPSEC. Let's just say there IS a threat and it is credible, although we're definitely NOT talking about a Soviet-style IADS! It's LOWER threat, but to say it is NO threat...well, I can introduce you to a couple widows of airmen over here who might beg to differ.



Okay, no sh*t...the ROE is classified. Either you don't know what the ROE really are and you're making this up, OR you know what it is, and are willingly talking about classified information on the world wide web. Which is it?

Either way, that statement does not accurately reflect how things work between JTACs and CAS aircraft. There are numerous levels of positive target identification that have to be met, as well as collateral damage estimation and risk-estimates for potential harm to friendly forces for a kinetic strike. That does NOT always include positive "visual" identification. That's about as specific as I can get about that.

You can talk until you're blue in the face about how Shows of Force are effective -- I know, I've seen it with my own eyes and heard JTACs thank us for the work. Yeah, it works sometimes. Sometimes the hadjis are scared by the flyby and the flares and will stop shooting. Yes, using the minimum amount of force required is a good thing on multiple levels; nobody's going to disagree with that, myself included. That's not the point of the discussion -- my musings that Shows of Force are retarded were simply riffing on the actual theme of my post.

The point of the discussion -- my part of it, at least -- is that there are aircraft out there actually daily making kinetic strikes that KILL THE ENEMY, and NOT JUST SCARE him. I found it funny that a story about a B-1 performing a flyby is getting press, and yet there are no writeups posted on the internet about an A-10 strafing 15 Al Qaeda personnel who were attacking ISAF forces, or F-15Es demolishing a Taliban Commander's hideout that was directing attacks against coalition forces with a 2,000-pound bomb.

There's a lot more going on in this war than is reported on FOXnews or www.af.mil.

It means that they're not going to officially talk about specific battle-damage-assessments on the internet -- personnel killed or buildings destroyed.

Trust me, this is not a "bomb dump-truck" war, where we are just plopping down $20,000 precision weapons on whatever we want and calling it "successful". The leadership gnat's-asses every single weapon drop, from the ground party's nomination of the target, through the request for airstrike process, and all the way to watching the aircrews' HUD footage of the delivery itself.

I have been second-guessed and armchair-quarterbacked on bomb drops more times that I'd care to admit....but that is how this war is being run. Perfection is the standard, and EVERYONE at every level of leadership has a small-picture interest in every use of lethal force. If I miss a target, or drop on a useless 'target', then I have to answer to The Man for it. the last thing I like to do is stand at attention in front of the Squadron or Wing Commander's desk and explain decisions that I made in the air, so I make methodical, carefully-weighed decisions in the air, even when the guy in the radio is screaming and when he keys the mic I can hear the automatic weapons fire in the background.

The tolerance for civilian casualties or collateral damage around here is ZERO. These strikes are conducted very.....very.....carefully. Don't read too much into the wording of a press release.

They working you hard, Randy?

_________________
"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Randy, the basics of the RoE have been released by the DoD as part of their Media Package, it contains part that no drops are authorized without positive visual identification of the target and confirmation that that target is hostile by either air or ground sources. For the DoD, that's good PR to put that out because then they can go back as shove it in the media's face because they like to take any errant drop (or drop that hits the legitimate target but "civilians" get killed) and make it look like our guys screwed up instead of following the RoE to the letter and meeting that long list of criterion before executing a strike and the "innocent" civilians not really being all that innocent.

BTW - I think that Afghanistan doesn't get much of any media lately. It's kinda like the forgotten AoR of this war, kind of like Africa and the Mediterranean of WWII. Everyone wants to talk about the "failure" of Iraq (in spite of glaring evidence to the contrary that they're now having to admit to happening) and not the successes anywhere. It's just the way the media works these days - bad press is the only press.

P-51 mstg wrote: COME ONE GUYS DRAFT SOME WRITERS.

Hope you get a high number...

P-51 mstg wrote: COME ONE GUYS DRAFT SOME WRITERS.

[/quote]

Hope you get a high number...

Don't jump at the success story yet. Patreus is doing a better job than anyone before him, and things are looking less grim than 6 months ago. But there are still planty of hairy and scary variables (biggest being the Iraqis themselves) to contend with.

_________________
"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

P-51 mstg wrote: COME ONE GUYS DRAFT SOME WRITERS.

[/quote]

Hope you get a high number...


My friend; I was there already, long before the others, and I didn't get an F-Anything to fly.

However, the Military has to understand that the WAR that is on (or armed peace) that requires public support and lots of funding. Its gone on longer than the US involvement in WWII and we will be paying for it for several generations to come.

To garner public support, you need to get some positive news that the enemy is dying for their country or cause. A report that an airplane made a low pass as a "show of force" is going to get that support.

In our newspaper, I get to read names daily with a weekly summary of about 5 or 10 KIDS (excuse me soldiers) who got killed and will not be around to get their first legal drink or enjoy any of the other freedoms in this country. I guess they are all there voluntarily. (Though I think some of the advertising for the Reserves and Nat. Guard are somewhat deceptive), but you find a growing number of people who don't want to see any kids killed so that the oil industry can get rich. These soldiers are sacrified so that after we occupy the middle east for the next 10 years and spend countless sums of money, there can be a revolution as soon as we leave and then it has to start over again.

Get it done and get out.

Mark H