The last ace?

[Former Member]

Isn't it funny how that works? People on this board are willing to discount Cunningham's achievements in the skies over Vietnam because of his apalling lack of SA after the end of his military career.

YET...there are other people on this board who, in recent threads, outright said that because someone was an ace/war hero/decorated veteran, they were essentially beyond reproach in their life after the military.

Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid!

The reality is that combat veterans are just regular people. Having extrordinary accomplishments in combat doesn't mean that you are personally infallible. Being a complete tool in "regular life", likewise, does not invalidate any wartime accimplishments.

Well said Randy!!!!

I remember being bashed by a few people on this site when I dared to mention Pappy Boyington's alcohol abuse in later years, and abrasive personality at his book signings. I commend him for his wartime accomplishments and still consider him a true American hero. Unfortunately he was also a very miserable man with many personal demons. Not surprisingly there were a few on here that placed Mr. Boyington with the likes of Mother Theresa.

John

[Bill Greenwood]

Good point John. I think the Cunningham case is sad, I suspect drug or alchohol problems were part of it. Once you become the lap dog of the defense industry it is easy to loose sight of honesty, lots of money involved. Despite brave or honorable service, one is only welcome at the party if you are spouting the party line. Had John Kerry been the war proponent that Mc Cain has; they would be touting his bronze star and silver star, not denigrating him.

[Former Member]

Despite brave or honorable service, one is only welcome at the party if you are spouting the party line. Had John Kerry been the war proponent that Mc Cain has; they would be touting his bronze star and silver star, not denigrating him.

Good point! That was just another example of how a man's military service was denigrated because of his anti-war activities afterwards. Whether you liked him or not he at least served his country honorably during wartime (unlike a certain individual ). Yeah...the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" was a real class act!

John

[muddyboots]

Whether you liked him or not he at least served his country honorably during wartime (unlike a certain individual ). Yeah...the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" was a real class act!

John

I'm wondering who you are refering to...Al Gore ? Newt Gingritch? Bush? Clinton? Any number of guys hid or refused to serve or just plain didn't have to. I'm just not ready to place service on my list of things that will affect my decision. Duke Cunningham was a jerk. He would of lost my vote veteran or not. Clinton was also a jerk, who I voted for despite my being a serving member of the military .

To me being a veteran isn't about politics or purity. My service was about my willingness to fight to defend my nation (not country-NATION). It was also pretty fun most of the time. It doesn't make me qualified to make decisions of natinoal security. In fact, I wonder if it wouldn't make it WORSE. It certainly screwed Hitler's head up and made him think he knew how to fight a war...

I try not to drag who I am now, or will be in 20 years, into what I did back when I was young dumb and full of come hither. It certainly changed me, and I am glad my friends and family appreciate me for it. But I wouldn't expect anyone to treat me any differently, especially not in a way that gives me a leg up on them.

[sdennison]

How about this: We honor our veterans for their courage and sacrifice. And then we remember that their courage and sacrifice often leads them to do things as civilians which we are not so pleased with. Ira Hayes is a good example of this. He came home so messed up that he turned into a drunk and a vagrant and died of exposure lying drunk next toa road one night. I think Duke Cunningham's later actions are directly attributable to the fighter pilots mentality. I don't like it, but I have seen far too many vets come home and make major mistakes because their experiences as young men damage their judgement later.
We Americans eem all to willing to applaud our young men for their sacrifices, and then abuse them when they make mistakes as a reult of them.

Wow, that's a lot to digest. I had many conversations with my Dad and some of his buddies (WWII Fighter Pilots). As youths, they cared little for the philosphy of the war, only wanted to fly. They dealt with the circumstances as they arose. Some were highly challenged, some were not. I know of one of Dad's classmates, to whom I spoke many times, who, after the war, had many emotional scars that have stayed with him since.

Newer age pilots and veterans are exposed to many more, and perhaps different experiences. I think that the difference may be that as a pilot, you are removed by altitude from the destruction below. I know that Dad was. However, his friend then flew immediately after the war over the zone to show the support people what the war was like and in that review, realized what he had done and was responsible for. The mental toll of that can be overwhelming.

So each veteran has his own set of demons to deal with. For some it is denial, for others, compartmentalizing, for some, PTSD.

For us in review, they dealt with what confronted them at the time. We reflect and opinionate on that. Their subsequent civilian lives may be and usually are, a product of those past experiences. Some tranisition well, some don't.

If you respect an Ace that then fell from grace, keep it where it belongs. If you are judging his combat career and his subsequent life, that is a total package and not what the origin of this thread was.

Put your butt in the cockpit and duplicate their experience, then take that to civilian life and see how you fare. Then judge.

I can separate the two as I have known both sides of my father and his friends. I will not judge but can have an opinion on both aftermaths.

The End & Thanks!

[tom d. friedman]

the duke's reputation as a vietnam pilot / ace is etched in stone... same goes as his record as a politician.

[gary]

Sabredriver I apologize, you are correct about feinsteins status. I should have specified the last ace "pilot"
Thanks
Gary

[RickH]

The last "pilot ace" IS Ritchie.