The Misinformed Public

Nathan · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:38 pm

You own a Charger Mustang?! Boy, that didn't sound right. Chargers are my fav. But I got a Dodge Dart instead. Still a fast little screamer! :twisted:

I think it should be kept on. That is historically accurate. Just sounds like peole just want to ruin other peoples enjoyment of trying to keep warbirds authentic.

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:26 pm

If they want to play that game...

Then how about removing all Christian crosses from public. It represents numerous acts of barbarity throughout history. So how about reducing the public inflammation by removing them.

If that's not cleansing enough, what about not publicly displaying the American Flag? After all, it was the flag which represented one of the last major bastions of African slavery and under which many cruelties were committed.

All of us know that is nutty, so it isn't going to happen. But that is what symbolism can evolve to, same as the Star of David could evolve to such a hated symbol in Nazi Germany.

I think we should strive to portray the very essence of that time, and it requires a very objective view of what happened during the war. The swastika was part of that equation, and it should be presented as a signifigant symbol of what a people, nation, and rule can do to go wrong.

This is like several tests before the US Supreme Court, where artistic endeavors were hauled to evaluate if they have redeeming social value. That airplane, with its swastika and iron crosses, has a very important redeeming social value- to remember why people like my Uncle Steve gave their life to stamp out the totalitarian fascist regimes which are, in every day life in America, reduced to that symbol.

Hope they have the kahunas to go against the prevaricator. Best thing to do is present it in a very public forum explaining the very important job of reminding people of why their fathers and mothers fought, esteem his view that this symbol is representative of hatred and terrible times, and then let this guy fade into the background.

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:12 pm

Quote:

Hi Mark,
I understand where you're coming from but the swastika is a special case IMHO. It represents the torture, murder and suffering of untold millions.
The symbol is something people are very passionate about and it's a very short step to go from seeing it displayed (in this case on the JU-52) and associating the people who are displaying it (in this case the CAF) with the evil it represents. The question you have to ask yourself is "is it worth waving the historically accurate" flag and being associated with that symbol. I for one do not ever want to be corrected or assumed by someone else to be connected to an evil that members of my family sacrificed their lives defeating.
Jack the realist

Speaking on behalf of my family who are members of an ethnicity that lost 3,000,000 of it's people due to Nazi genocide I think the Nazi symbol should stay. The swastika is and should be offensive to people, it symbolizes everything you addressed. However, placating to peoples sensitivities is not only a losing battle, but it is very dangerous.

Perhaps we should remove the Apache heads from the tail of the 345th aircraft as to not offend out native American friends who's ancestors were murdered by early American settlers or maybe remove the Cross of Lorraine from the tail of "Super Rabbit" as to not offend our Muslim friends millions of which were killed during the Crusades. If you want to get into that sort of thing you are likely to find that every group for one reason or another feels they have the right to make demands, or are owed something because some atrocity has occurred to their race, religion or ancestry at some point.

First you paint a swimsuit on a naked lady, then you remove the swastika, next thing we will be doing is removing the guns and eventually melting the entire thing down to make peace medals.

I would think that anyone who feels they have a right to complain about the Nazis would ask that we leave every historical swastika in place as to never forget the evil that exists in this world.

History is history and lets keep it all on the record.

Ryan

Michel C-GNCJ · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:36 pm

Symbols have the meaning that history gave them, people put the sentimental conotation. I agree, start this way and it will never end.

And by the way, for millions of people in India, the swastika has never meant hatred and facism and all. It is a religious symbol of peace.

There is an interresting story about why Hitler chose the swastika for his regime. Apparently he was looking for a symbol of power (he also used the cross, no ?) and one day while rumaging into his predecessor's artifacts (the Kaiser) he found his sword with the swastika engraved in the pommel and decided that was a powerful enough symbol.

How did it get there ? Well, the Kaiser one day was helped out of a bad situation by a Buddist monk. To thank him, he offered the monk to do anything he whished. Budhist monks being budhist monks, he asked only that his religious symbol, the swastika be engraved on the Kaiser's sword, which he did... as a thank you gesture.

So, in short, should the various marks be removed from the planes ? No way ! People, specially the young, forget far too fast about the past lessons and are prone to repeat the same mistakes...

It's part of history and it should never be rewritten only to please a minority. We already do that way too often. That's my two cents...

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:04 pm

I do have a charger and a mustang. In my opinion, people need to get some thicker skin. Life sucks, grab a helmet.

Bust*A*Stitch · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:07 pm

I love a little memory of being at the 45th infantry museum here in OKC, and having a mother with little kids getting furiously upset over a swastika being on a unit jacket.

She was making a complete specticle of herself when the tour guide finaly steped in and explained it had been the official unit symbol prior to 1939. At that time they had changed it to the current Native American THUNDERBIRD emblem still being used today.

The lady still wouldn't shut up, so they removed her from the property.

"Misinformed Public" doesn't correctly voice my opinions on these people.

AndyG · **Joined:** Thu May 06, 2004 4:39 pm **Posts:** 93

Jack Cook wrote:

Hi Mark,
I understand where you're coming from but the swastika is a special case IMHO. It represents the torture, murder and suffering of untold millions.
The symbol is something people are very passionate about and it's a very short step to go from seeing it displayed (in this case on the JU-52) and associating the people who are displaying it (in this case the CAF) with the evil it represents. The question you have to ask yourself is "is it worth waving the historically accurate" flag and being associated with that symbol. I for one do not ever want to be corrected or assumed by someone else to be connected to an evil that members of my family sacrificed their lives defeating.
Jack the realist

Hi Jack,

Better tell half of Asia to remove all 'Swastika's' from their homes, temples etc. too?

History is History, best not to mess with it at all otherwise future generations will likely treat the sanatised version with contempt when they discover the truth, leading to more fancifull alternative histories and theories springing up everywhere.

Wasn't the hero of the Titanic disaster Leonardo DiCaprio?

Wasn't the Enigma code machine captured by a US submarine?

A UFO with aliens from another planet crashed at Corona, not a weather balloon?

Lets fly the flag, whoever's flag that may be as long as its historically accurate.

There are too many lies in this world today already, from Gov'ts to elitist banksters and media moguls. Lets not add to the crap we are fed from our honourable leaders if we can easily avoid it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Quote:

Swastika
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about the symbol. For the town, see Swastika, Ontario.

A "right-facing" Swastika in a decorative Hindu formThe swastika (from Sanskrit sv¨¢stika स्वास्तिक ) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (…e) or left-facing (…d) forms. The term is derived from Sanskrit svasti, meaning well-being. The Thai greeting sawasdee is from the same root, carrying the same implication.

It is a widely-used symbol in Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism). Hindus often decorate the swastika with a dot in each quadrant. In India, it is common enough to be a part of several Devanagari fonts. It is also a symbol in the modern unicode. It is often imprinted on religious texts, marriage invitations, decorations etc. It is used to mark religious flags in Jainism and to mark Buddhist temples in Asia.

Archaeological evidence of swastika shaped ornaments goes back to the Neolithic period. In 1920 the swastika was appropriated as a Nazi symbol, and has since then become a controversial motif as a consequence. In the Western world, it is this usage as a symbol of Nazism that is most familiar, and this political association has largely eclipsed its historical status in the East

Taylor Stevenson · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:16 pm

I think the Swastika is important to put on period Nazi aircraft because it forces the public to remember what happened. If we all forget about that dark time then history is doomed to repeat itself.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:30 pm

The last thing the CAF or any of our historic organization needs to do is offend the public or someone who has suffered under the Nazis. Too bad the letter writer or complainer did not sign their name. The wing could have contacted him directly to explain their side of the issue. I hope they will through a strong media campaign, letters, perhaps talk shows. tv interview etc. What we must keep in mind is the large Jewish population in that area who may well have had realtives lost under Hitler. My Mother in law is one of those people, Polish, not Jewish, who was sent to a Russian camp as a girl of 13. These people are such a special case of victims, that if I could not get the public to undersstand the CAF side of historic accuracy, I would strongly consider water painting over the Swastica. If we see the plane or a reinactor in a Nazi uniform we may not recoil iin the same way as a victim would, but let's understand their deep feelings.

Django · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:34 pm

What a shame.

My feeling is the swastika should stay on ALL surviving WWII German aircraft.

So the sight of the swastika on an aircraft gives them an uneasy feeling? Good, then they will never forget why exactly that is.

Zachary · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:44 pm

Django wrote:

So the sight of the swastika on an aircraft gives them an uneasy feeling? Good, then they will never forget why exactly that is.

Very well said....

Zack

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:42 pm

I guess I'm gonna weigh in on this too. I hope they can keep ALL of the German insignia on the aircraft. I do believe in censorship to a limit - but ONLY if it violates God's law (ie. some nose art) for any member of the general public to view it.
On the other hand, there is no reason for people to ignore history, or preserve monuments and reminders of terribly important events, good or bad. The swastikas and iron crosses should stay, despite how we may not like their use of the symbols. I would point out as an afterthought that symbols DO have meanings, and it is important to discern WHY we are using whatever symbols WE use. It was certainly unChristian for the symbol of the cross to have been used in many occasions in history. It's like a story told about a man who was robbing a bank while wearing a coat stolen from another man, who was then accused of the crime - it wasn't his fault that his coat was used, but it certainly didn't help his public image.

Ryan

bugazon · **Posted:** Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:15 pm

I am sorry to say ryan, That is completely hypocritical. That is the exact same as the people who don't want the swastica in the first place. It is what it is. Its historical and meant for people not to forget. Right wrong or indifferent, like or dislike. It IS what IS or what it WAS.

With all of this German controversy, seems no cares that the Japanese meatball or rising sun is too offensive. Or did they forget they MURDERED Chinese, American, British, Philipino and Australian, POWs, Civilians and who ever else got in their way. Its amazing to me how people want to forget and turn a blind eye instead of learn about the history.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:36 pm

bugazon wrote:

I am sorry to say ryan, That is completely hypocritical. That is the exact same as the people who don't want the swastica in the first place. It is what it is. Its historical and meant for people not to forget. Right wrong or indifferent, like or dislike. It IS what IS or what it WAS.

Can you please explain more clearly how it is "hypocritical", and how it is the exact same as those who don't want it to exist?

Ryan

bipe215 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:00 pm

Seems like 20 years ago, you rarely heard of people being offended by such things. In the last five years, it has become almost daily news that someone is offended by something. Seems like one or two people can cry enough about _________ (fill in the blank), to have it become
'officially' offensive.
I do think we have to be awfully careful in the flying community or we could easily start to lose the freedom we have to enjoy flying old airplanes.

Steve G

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