Twin Tail Mystery on Maine/Quebec Border

Col Rohr, Ted and others

I am happy to announce Trixie and I were married last night and consequently I will no longer be involved in discovery and recovery.

I wish you all well in trying to find that elusive Lanc, B24 Stirling or what ever it was in that Lake in Quebec , but unfortunately I will not be available to assist. (At least through my efforts we have confirmed Quebec IS in Canada!!)

If you need a good proffessional diver and his buddies to complete this discovery and recovery please try DIVETHEWORLD (and tell them I sent you) as they are nearly as good as discovering and recovering as we are!!


Trixie and Con Nive

Well hello Col Ruhr, you norty boy!

I am always keen to meet Cons friends, unfortunately he cant come on and reply himself, he's a bit tied up at the moment.

I'm afraid he cant come out with his Airplane Friends anymore either, as he is learning how to do the washing and ironing at the moment.

While Con cant get out with his Airplane Friends, I have been going out and meeting many of them for him, while he stays and home and cleans the house, and I do enjoy being given a sit in their cockpits.

I did enjoy your Women and Planes thread, (Although I dont let Con look at such things) and thankyou for your kind offer of some marital aids, I would like to order some new cuffs, ropes, and riding crop.

I teaching Con a new form of diving now, and although he doesnt get outside with his dive buddies, he does get to wear his wet suit all the time and he seems to be enjoying his training, I know I certainly do!!

I do look forward to meeting you and AVM Parker one day, you seem like very norty boys! and both need a stern hand!!!


Mistress Trixie Divine - (nee Nive) (and Her house husband Con)

[TimAPNY]

Rob
What is the a/c in lake Champlain in NY/VT ? I think it is a see plane but I've never been able to find out? I think it is a popular dive spot.

Tim, I think the one you're talking about is a SEABEE. I know a Guy who tried to salvage it but gave up because it was stuck upside-down in the mud.

This one has been the subject of an intensive and serious research project of mine for some years now. This has involved a complete search of the RCAF "crash card" system as well as interviews, four air searches and two ground searches. It is tantalizing in that every time I give up, another interesting lead comes in.

I've been able to rule out a Lanc. or Liberator. Most witnesses that I track down have it third or forth hand. The one first hand (credible) witness that I have gave me an area on a topo map that has been thoroughly grid searched. My next step is to con him into flying me over this fall and pointing out the area that he's talking about.

An interesting incident in the Game Warden's papers from that area during WW II sent me on a goose chase that ended with a B-17 that had half its crew bail out near Mingan PQ but landed at PIAAFB.

There is also an issue that some wreckage was recently found near the border by another lake in the area, but not enough to ever have been spotted from the air in recent decades. Identification is pending.

There is also the airframe of an Aztec in the same area, that is visible from ths air at certain times during the air.

Anyway, this is a tantalizing one that I hope someone solves. I have been successful with 2 "mystery" wrecks in Maine, the so called "Spednic Lake" and "Spruce Mountain" wrecks, but this one is frustrating (read fun) and should be solved with enough archive, interview and ground time.

The parts found north of the area we are talking about are most likely the stray remains of an RAF Kittyhawk that was recovered up soon after it ditched.

I am convinced that Spednic was the Seabee and "Amphibian" or "seaplane" somehow bacame "naval" in the media. I've interviewed all five witnesses who saw Mac Maheu depart that morning and he overflew the area of the Seabee wreckage. He didn't make a report until he landed in Greenville, and local guides took wardens to the Seabee site.

Spruce Mountain was never anything more than a pilotage error by a medical officer with no observer training and a map that did not show Crater Pond on Saddleback. The answer was in the film we had, just not in the obvious place (about search and rescue).

There was some talk some years about about getting a B-24 for the NASM. With as many one-off and obscure foreign types in the NASM collection, it is hard to believe that the NASM does not have a single example of the the most produced American aircraft of World War II. There was talk of recovering an RCAF B-24 that had crashed relatively intact in Newfoundland. This plane had a documented combat history, sinking one (perhaps two?) U-boats. This particular airframe would have been the prime candidate to go to the NASM for restoration.

Apparently, there was some issue over who had the rights to the airframe. At the time of the crash (1944), Newfoundland was not considered part of Canada, so there was a legal squabble over whether the airframe belonged to the RCAF, to Canada, to Newfoundland, or even to the U.S., since this was a Lend-Lease aircraft. Unfortunately, the individual who was keeping me apprised of this project passed away, so I have no idea what the end result was.

There was an LB-30 being stored (in several deteriorating pieces)at the Downtown Ft. Collins airport. This airframe was also being considered by the NASM for acquisition and restoration, but they rejected it due to its lack of combat history. Some sources claim that this LB-30 did see combat in Alaska with the 11th Air Force, but that does appear to be unlikely. It seems to me that the NASM is being too picky. The LB-30, whether it saw combat or not, is a rare airplane. Many similar examples were thrust into combat right after Pearl Harbor...surely the Smithsonian could see the value of the type?

The last thing I heard, the owner of the airframe, Don Whittington, was looking to sell the LB-30, with an asking price around $200,000 as is, where is. I don't know if he got any takers. The LB-30 would require a lot of time and money just to get back into static condition, let alone flying condition. Does anyone know what the current status of this airframe is?

[TimAPNY]

The NASM should get to work on thier B-17D before they look to leave a B-24/LB-30 in storage for another 30 years. IMO

First things ,first canada didn,t recieve any aircraft under the lend -lease program. The aircraft also never made it to Quebec, the parts where taken to goose bay and the RCMP seized the aircraft for the province, of Newfoundland. and before u all come to Canada and take our historic aircraft, worry about the ones still in your country.

Hi Col. Rohr,

Thanks for clearing up what happened to the B-24 in Canada.

Regarding the LB-30, my research agrees with yours: that it flew as a hack throughout the war and had no combat record (even though I have seen press clippings in the Anchorage Daily News that state the contrary). It was used post-war in Alaska by the Morris Knudsen Company, where it was wrecked on an Alaskan airstrip. When I was doing some research on the plane, one individual forwaded me scans of color slides that he had taken around 1960 of the aircraft shortly after it had been abandoned and stripped of its engines. It was still largely intact at that point. The pics are still sitting on my old computer. I'd be more than happy to forward them to anyone interested.

Regardless of whether it had a combat record or not, LB-30s (or B-24s for that matter) in any condition are rare enough birds today that you'd think someone would be interested in the Ft. Collins LB-30. Maybe Mr. Whittington should do the right thing and donate the airframe to an organization that would make some attempt to restore it, even if it was a static restoration. It seems a shame to continue to have the airframe deteriorate to the point that even a static restoration may no longer be feasible.

I'd be all for that hike in the Canadian woods.

Yes this aircraft is a combat vet, its supposed to have sunk two U-boats in the Bay of Biscay,as a permit from the DOD, they can declare it surplus but then it goes to crown assets, and they will give it to you, but they also say that the province that it is located in may have claim to it, Tom was going to mate the wings to his priveteet fus. that he had , the pic,s i saw of the B-24 showed that the fuselage was flatened , this was in 1987-88.

[petef86a]

This one has been a loooong research project and many people I have interviewed blend several incidents together when they talk about this aircraft.

As it turns out, the crash near the lake north of the one usually attributed to this "mystery border bomber" actually happened on November 17, 1940. RCAF Digby #749 was returning from a coastal patrol flight and was diverted to Montreal due to poor weather at coastal bases. It ran out of fuel and all 6 crew bailed out with 3 surviving. The incident is listed as happening in Quebec, and all 6 crew landed in Quebec, but the aircraft circled and actually hit a ridge on the Maine side of the border. The fuselage was telescoped but intact and visible from the air for years. It has apparently been removed.

I am not sure how it became 4 engined and twin tailed but viewing acattered wreckage from the air.......

[John Dupre]

Any photos of the Ft. Collins LB-30 or the Canadian B-24 anywhere?