Warbird Information Exchange

Brad,

I only wish to let you know that the neo-political input I was referring to has nothing to do with the current election of GWB and JFK. I don't give a **** about the mudthrowing there.

But what I do mind is the general opinion that America has against the rest of the world and think that the good old U S of A has to solve the problems in the world because the other countries (Europe in my case) cannot take care for themselves. Okay, this is global politics and has nothing to do with WIX or my intrest in warbirds, so is no issue here, but I just wanted to let you know to explain things.

What I do mind is that this board is used to air feelings (how humourous they may be, but that's a matter of opinion) about militia, republic and people calling themselves Colonel, Captain, Air Marshal or toilet cleaner private first class. People who raise a question about a certain recovery or how a certain recovery should be handled, can expect to receive a salvo from the Snowball Republic of Maine in which the words: Navy, Law, UNESCO, lawyer, we know what to do etc......., is used frequently. I'm not having a go at the bad spelling mind you.

That is what I mean about things that make the hairs in my neck stand up everytime I read that, as it immediately links this to my dislike of the general (political) way how people are being told how to do things. I know I am used to think first before acting and generally try to use my common sense, perhaps that's why I am a little too sensitive about that..

Now, I am probably the only one who is offended by that so I am not going to start a crusade against this so no problem here but it has some implications regarding the freqency of my checking this forum (unaffected I hasten to add) or the number of posts I generate (affected I must admit).

I hope I have made things clear (again)

Cheers

Cees

Rob,

I do not wish to repeat what I have said earlier. There is no need to defend yourself, just read my earlier posts carefully and it should all be selfexplanatory. I like you as a person and have great respect for what you do, but stop hiding behind laws, rules and regulations..... and don't treat me like a bloody fool, as things are sometimes different on this side of the pond my dear chap.

Don't get me started about UNESCO, our museum is housed in an UNESCO-listed building but after having made several attempts in getting some sort of plan to enable the building to survive the next 100 years, there is no reply from their side.

Just to give some background, I have fifteen years of experience in aircraft recovery in the field and that includes finding and bringing home missing persons. I have dealt with ambassadors, the Dutch and British MOD, unwilling mayors and guys in suits and I know that to reach your goal you have to be civil, both in speech, dress and in action. These guys read these forums too you know. I know our website is regularly checked by the Dutch Ministry of Internal Affairs. But I don't feel any desire to tell others what to do.........

Forgive me for my bad grasp of English.

Cheers

Cees

Hi Cees and Rob

I think all of this is really healthy and I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness.

As to the stuff about Militas etc - Cees I have a different sense of humor - I grew up in the 50-70s (I an 51) and in Australia at that time we developed a very irreverant style and Sense of humor - then the war (My war Vietnam) happened and I saw and did things nobody should ever have to do with pure politics as a driver - which I strongly believe it was. So I guess my sense of humor and irreverance is reflected from my life experiance and my upbringing and we are probably not too disimilar in our political attitudes (internationally at least) As a Senior burecrat I also have a healthy ? dislike of political intrigue. I took on the AVM tag as that was my service tag as I was always trying to do the "right thing"and as I was being sent up by the troops that was what they called me. It didn't last long when I got there.... and I don't regard Military authority very highly anymore so that is why I tend to send it up - as I said my sense of humor is a little dark

I have seen much of your work over the years and have participated in my own small way in similar activities in PNG and I have tremendous respect for you as I do for Rob.

Nobody reading the header post should have assumed it was directed at any one person - I thought I had made that clear - I genuinely respect and admire everybody who participates and we need to get away from personal finger pointing -

Cees when I do eventually shuffle off - You get the Spitfire instrument Pannel - you have earn't it - it belonged to a very rare breed of man.

Yours in the brotherhood

Kindest regards
John P

_________________
Air Vice Marshall
Sunshine State Air Farce

Thank you for acting as the spokesperson for US foreign policy.

If you want to discuss politics, please feel free to contact me at any time. Maybe we can discuss at length how things reached the current state of affairs.



Is this an issue of political correctness? I'm sure Scott could turn off that function if you felt that was a negative influence on the WIX membership in general. If it would keep you here, I would be all for it. I don't find that function especially valuable.

The militia postings themselves I have found to be time wasters for me so I just ignore them, but they seem to entertain those people involved. Perhaps they should be taken off board (weren't they already in the off-topic section?) if they are having a negative effect on the general WIX membership.



This seems to be directed at Rob, but he is only giving his opinion. He is not telling you what to do (he has no authority in the US, let alone Holland!), and he is not posting to disrupt anyone's recovery plans. If your plans are so sensitive as to be disrupted by third parties thousands of miles away, I would not post them- and I am not aware that Rob has ever threatened anyone with punitive action. There may be others far less vocal than Rob that have sinister intentions to disrupt your plans, but I have no knowledge of those things.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your issue?


Flattery will get you nowhere with Rob!



Has this happened on the WIX board or that other one? Please PM me an example so that I may better understand your point.


As far as I am concerned, the only way to clarify these things is to discuss them! We need you right here for that.

And by the way, my name isn't Brad... That's another guy in a far away place busting his backside to keep my family safe.

Thanks for reading,

Brandon

Dear all,

As an American living in Europe, I would tend to side with Cees. The American "can-do" attitude looks very different from this side of the pond. Please consider the following as an attempt to clarify things, rather than to pass judgement.

In 20+ years in the aircraft preservation movement, I have personally seen (some - not all) Americans walk in and demand aircraft on the assumption that they, and only they, can and will save them. Unfortunately, this attitude spreads to virtually every other field, making relationships much more difficult than they used to be.

In the old days, I would travel the world on my US passport. When I was in Brazil last month, it almost got me arrested. I was taken to the police, fingerprinted, photographed etc just to get in. My host, a most pleasant Air Force colonel, said "Nothing personal - but the US has started doing this to Brazilians and we are only returning the favor." The Brazilians - what security threat do they pose to the US?

Having wrestled with our own bureaucracies to see some projects through, I can understand the frustration we sometimes face. But I agree with Cees - charging head down is seldom the solution. Also, it is a fact that the US Navy is not a major concern in Europe, for the very good reason that US activity here was a largely Army affair. And we all know that they, and the Air Force, have a different policy. (Of course, the day I find an SB-2C over here it'll be a different story ...)

Believe it or not, there are different cultures and attitudes. Those which Americans display towards the rest of the world are not always the most flattering. There is a lingering sense of superiority, a sense that money will prevail over law, and even that all anyone is interested is "the pig payola" (as someone wrote on this board). Whereas the Americans are just interested in history and preservation.

Well - it ain't so. Many Europeans (and Brazilians etc.) are interested in it too. And many Americans are in it for the money - we have read the interesting story of a P-51 on this board, just a few days ago. We all know of some funny trading in aircraft, bogus parts etc.

Don't get me wrong (1) - the Americans are NOT worse than any others. The Europeans (if such a thing exists, Cees- we are still an Italian and a Dutchman) are NOT better than anyone else. We are all the same mixed bag of good and bad, idealists and pragmatists, enthusiasts and speculators. But that is precisely why the "chip on the shoulder" attitude can be so upsetting and off-putting to others.

Don't get me wrong (2) - I am grateful, and most of us still are, for having been freed by the USA in WW2. But we also find it difficult to reconcile certain now-attitudes and now-mindsets with those of those brave GIs and airmen and sailors 60 years ago.

'nuff said. Let's go back to aeroplanes (Rob - note the correct spelling ...)

happy landings to all,

Gregory

And by the way, my name isn't Brad...

Sorry Brandon, got you guys mixed up.

Cheerio

Cees

In the same general area where the Buffalo was recovered their ar atleast three and possiable four more Buffalos all have US Navy Bu# assign to them well since Villiard (spelling) trade his to Pensacola(oh by the way NHC had nothing to do with it and they are PO)NHC has contact the various Gov. via the NAVSEC to inform them they will not allow anymore recoverys. this had happen with-in the last five weeks.


Rob

So if the Russians decide to recover these supposed Buffalos what is the Navy going to about it....invade ?


Dave

Rob Rohr wrote:
I'll lay back Starting Monday Sept.19 I'll will not post anything unless its a direct question to me. Lets see how many of you "Old Timers" jump in

Don't bother Rob,
Judging by your replies regarding this thread, I have drawn my conclusions and as an "oldtimer" I am jumping out, effective immediately.

Cees

Under Italian law, wrecks belong to their original owner. The caveat is that if I recover your plane in Italian territory (including waters), your choice is limited to (a) taking possession of the wreck in return for costs plus a fee (set by law - I forget the details) or (b) forfeit the wreck. In recent years, Germany (Luftwaffe), UK (Spitfire) and USA (P-38, P-40) have all taken option B.

So, assuming I found an SB-2C in Italian waters and recovered it legally under local laws, what could the Navy do here, in this country? Invade, as Dave M2 jests? I think they would be quite happy to see it displayed in the Italian AF Museum, next to the PV-2 and S-2F. Now, if John Doe tried to sell it in the States things might be different, but as long as it stays where it was found, I imagine there is precious little they can do.

At any rate, before jumping out of this debate, I would point out that in the past week or so it was I who broke the news of the Dayton Zero and Canadian B-17. Both originated elsewhere - USAF and Dave M2 - but I brought them to WIX. This is just to remind all of us that the strength of WIX is not in any individual Gregory, Cees or Rob, but in the fact that we all share news on this board. Quitting or freezing in order to be missed reminds me of the guy who cut his balls off to punish his wife



Gregory

Hi Gregory

..........And I wouldn't be doing that -yours or mine!!!!!

Seriously thanks for the post - I agree very much.

Regards
John

_________________
Air Vice Marshall
Sunshine State Air Farce

I am locking this thread down. People take this stuff way too personally. I understand this somewhat as you have no idea of the comments I want to make at this moment. But since I am a mature adult I will refrain from making inflamitory statements.

This forum is a community and as such we have a variety of personalities. And wherever you have more than a certain amount of people you will have conflict. Deal with it. This whole attitude of "If they don't think like me I'm going home." is short sighted and close-minded. Part of the value of this site is to experience other opinions. If you want to hear your own opinions then find a mirror.

Part of me seriously considered shutting down the whole site. I realized however that it would be the same mentality as taking my ball and going home.

If you don't like it here, then you are free to leave. There are other discussion forums out there so don't put yourself in discomfort by being here.

Changing pace here a bit. I want to thank all of those individuals who have been supportive of the site and specifically the WIX forum.

_________________
Scott Rose
Editor-In-Chief/Webmaster
Warbirds Resource Group - Warbird Information Exchange - Warbird Registry

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