Skyraiders ...

SpadGuy · **Joined:** Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 pm **Posts:** 19

Ken wrote:

Hey, I took this one! A great flight with a VERY DIFFERENT load.

SpadGuy

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

SpadGuy wrote:

SIDSIKO wrote:

Hi Snake,

You give me a BuNo and I can give you the date it was SOC from the Navy and more often than not, the reason.

Sid

Gentlemen. I can help with some of your questions in this part of the thread. Let me first say, I have found some errors in both Baugher's Skyraider listing and in Wayne Mutza's listing at the end of his book. I have all the USAF Skryaider record cards and two different sources of Skyraiders lost and a listing of ALL VNAF aircraft lost (Skyraiders and all other types) from 1962-1973.

For SIDSIKO, what is the source of your data for transfers from USN to USAF? I have the received date from the USAF record cards, but not from any USN source.

SpadGuy

Absolutely fabulous!

I too have found a couple errors in the Baugher list, and a couple minor errors in the Mutza book (it is still a GREAT book, though).

Do you have anything on 135147? I believe I have a couple photos of it, but it's not listed in the Mutza book.

SpadGuy · **Joined:** Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 pm **Posts:** 19

SpadGuy[/quote]
Absolutely fabulous!

I too have found a couple errors in the Baugher list, and a couple minor errors in the Mutza book (it is still a GREAT book, though).

Do you have anything on 135147? I believe I have a couple photos of it, but it's not listed in the Mutza book.

[/quote]

I do not have the image to which you refer. I find no reference to the USAF ever possessing 135147. Perhaps if I saw the image I could comment on possible alternatives.

Hook

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Hook, I doubt I could get a usable scan. It's a two page spread in the front (pages 12-13 IIRC) in the front of the Dorr Bantam book. AF 35-14 is pretty clear, the 7 less so, but there's not much else it could be. If you look REAL hard, you can just make out TS on the fin. It's got a blue back room (even though the SN is for an AD-5W/EA-1E), black undersides, and the cowling ring is heavily chipped/weathered down to bare metal.

Later on the book, there's another pic of the front end of this airplane. Obviously the same one from the pattern of paint chipping on the cowling ring.

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Here's another oddball Skyraider pic I wish I knew more about:

Caption is "USAF 1st Air Commando at Pleiku, VN."

Could this be the Skyraider made out of the front half of a mortared A-1E and the back end of an A-1G mentioned in Birdsall's book? How I wish I had a picture of the whole airplane!

You can read further discussion/speculation/rumors & WAGs about it here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/t ... ot%3B+A-1E

(Is there a more anal group on earth than model builders?) :lol:

SpadGuy · **Joined:** Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 pm **Posts:** 19

Snake45 wrote:

Hook, I doubt I could get a usable scan. It's a two page spread in the front (pages 12-13 IIRC) in the front of the Dorr Bantam book. AF 35-14 is pretty clear, the 7 less so, but there's not much else it could be. If you look REAL hard, you can just make out TS on the fin. It's got a blue back room (even though the SN is for an AD-5W/EA-1E), black undersides, and the cowling ring is heavily chipped/weathered down to bare metal.

Later on the book, there's another pic of the front end of this airplane. Obviously the same one from the pattern of paint chipping on the cowling ring.

A-1E-5s that were in the USAF when I was there, Oct '71 to Oct '72 were 135141, 135206, 135215. There is NO USAF aircraft record card for 135147.

Adam Kline · **Posted:** Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:26 pm

It just looks like an A-1E with some spares from another camo aircraft.

SpadGuy · **Joined:** Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 pm **Posts:** 19

SpadGuy wrote:

Snake45 wrote:

Hook, I doubt I could get a usable scan. It's a two page spread in the front (pages 12-13 IIRC) in the front of the Dorr Bantam book. AF 35-14 is pretty clear, the 7 less so, but there's not much else it could be. If you look REAL hard, you can just make out TS on the fin. It's got a blue back room (even though the SN is for an AD-5W/EA-1E), black undersides, and the cowling ring is heavily chipped/weathered down to bare metal.

Later on the book, there's another pic of the front end of this airplane. Obviously the same one from the pattern of paint chipping on the cowling ring.

A-1E-5s that were in the USAF when I was there, Oct '71 to Oct '72 were 135141, 135206, 135215. There is NO USAF aircraft record card for 135147.

OK, sorry, I do have that book, in fact two copies of it, go figure! Not a great picture. But here is what I see. Looks like the right seat is empty, but cannot be certain. I agree it looks like 35 as the first two digits of the serial. I would bet it is 135141. But it could be either marked with TS or TC. At that point in time, all NKP Skyraider squadrons were flying night, SAR and CAS missions, day and night. The night duty rotated between squadrons.

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

SpadGuy wrote:

OK, sorry, I do have that book, in fact two copies of it, go figure! Not a great picture. But here is what I see. Looks like the right seat is empty, but cannot be certain. I agree it looks like 35 as the first two digits of the serial. I would bet it is 135141. But it could be either marked with TS or TC. At that point in time, all NKP Skyraider squadrons were flying night, SAR and CAS missions, day and night. The night duty rotated between squadrons.

135141 is an awfully tempting conclusion, and I'm trying to see that last number as a 1 and having a real hard time of it.

I have several other pics of 141 and in all of them, it has the standard Collins 37R-2. This one has that oddball dual-band antenna that I've seen on a very few Es. Not that the antenna couldn't have been swapped out at some point, as we saw above, where the pic here has the dual-band but I have other pics of the same airplane with the Collins.

You wouldn't happen to know the story of that dual-band antenna, would you? I think it's a Collins 437S-1, but it might be a RAMI AT-1108 or a Dayton-Granger VU10-122-1. They all look VERY similar and I'm not sure who USAF was dealing with at that point. I'm guessing that they put that dual-band antenna on certain airplanes for some particular reason or special purpose. I have yet to see it on a single-seater, nor or any VNAF Skyraider.

Adam Kline · **Posted:** Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:47 am

Your only hint is the rather cynical " Step 1 Glue A to B"

Ken · **Posted:** Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:54 pm

.... and the area the "A" and "B" straddle at the aft edge of the blue room canopy looks an awful lot like a long doubler or scab patch.

Ken

SpadGuy · **Joined:** Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:40 pm **Posts:** 19

I have several other pics of 141 and in all of them, it has the standard Collins 37R-2. This one has that oddball dual-band antenna that I've seen on a very few Es. Not that the antenna couldn't have been swapped out at some point, as we saw above, where the pic here has the dual-band but I have other pics of the same airplane with the Collins.

You wouldn't happen to know the story of that dual-band antenna, would you? I think it's a Collins 437S-1, but it might be a RAMI AT-1108 or a Dayton-Granger VU10-122-1. They all look VERY similar and I'm not sure who USAF was dealing with at that point. I'm guessing that they put that dual-band antenna on certain airplanes for some particular reason or special purpose. I have yet to see it on a single-seater, nor or any VNAF Skyraider.

[/quote]

Try this on for size. The A-1E-5s were all guppies EA-1E and EA-1Fs. Perhaps the different antenna had something to do with the USN mission before the USAF got their hands on them rather something the USAF added. Remember, the USAF was in a great hurry to get more Skyraiders in the fight and this was before the A-1H/J airframes were available. As you know, they did not modify these aircraft to the "USAF A-1E" dual-control standard.

Hook

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

SpadGuy wrote:

Try this on for size. The A-1E-5s were all guppies EA-1E and EA-1Fs. Perhaps the different antenna had something to do with the USN mission before the USAF got their hands on them rather something the USAF added. Remember, the USAF was in a great hurry to get more Skyraiders in the fight and this was before the A-1H/J airframes were available. As you know, they did not modify these aircraft to the "USAF A-1E" dual-control standard.

Hook

Very interesting! I've never seen that antenna on any USN A-1 but then I haven't been looking for it. I'll have a peek tonight.

I'm also still trying to find out if any EA-1Fs (AD-5Qs) got into USAF or VNAF service. I've got the complete BuAer number list of them but so far haven't found one pic of one. Joe Baugher lists one as going to VNAF (132576) but no details. I did read recently that by the time the VN war started heating up, the Navy only had 24 EA-1Fs in the entire fleet. These were also the last A-1s flown by the USN in Southeast Asia, after they had retired the Hs and Js from combat.

Based on the number of pics I've studied and airframes I've logged, statistically, I should have seen four or more ex-EA-1Fs in USAF or VNAF service by now. But I've still got one more book to go through, and I just ordered another one, so who knows, I might turn up one yet. :wink:

Back to that Collins 437S antenna: One other place I've seen that (or something that looks like it) is on the F8F-2 in the USN museum in Pensacola. What's weird there is I can't find that antenna on any other military Bearcat in anybody's service, and the only civil Bearcat I've ever seen with it is the old Ed Maloney -2, back in the '60s. The -2 in the USN museum was never on the civil register, it went right from Lichtfield Park to the museum. And very oddly, it's molded on the old HAWK (now Testor) 1/48 Bearcat kit, even though it's obviously not a standard Bearcat item.

BTW, Hook, I absoultely LOVE your Osprey book! In fact, the photo of 32528 on page 58 and its caption are what set me off on this whole research project in the first place, which should as an author make you very proud. :wink:

Ken · **Posted:** Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:47 pm

Speaking of that grey G-model, there aren't that many photos of USAF grey G's are there? The p. 58 photo you refer to does show that this particular bird had the "castle-window" rear canopy instead of a blue room ....

Ken

Snake45 · **Joined:** Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm **Posts:** 864

Ken wrote:

Speaking of that grey G-model, there aren't that many photos of USAF grey G's are there? The p. 58 photo you refer to does show that this particular bird had the "castle-window" rear canopy instead of a blue room ....

Ken

I can't recall many if any right offhand, though I do have several pics of camoed ones. Do have several VNAF gray ones with metaled-over back room.

"Metal back rooms" I have pics of include:

132487, VNAF, camo.

132498, VNAF, in both gray and camo schemes.

132503, VNAF, in camo.

132528, as discussed above, VNAF in gray, then USAF in camo, then VNAF in camo.

133878, USAF, camo.

135021: I have this one logged as USAF in gray, so there's one. Pic's on page 33 of Vietnam Air Warfare, editors Robert F. Dorr and Chris Bishop, Chartwell Books 1996. Baugher has it as With 1st Air Commando Squadron 14th Air Commando Wing destroyed in VC mortar attack at Pleiku AB, South Vietnam Apr 22, 1966.

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