Warbird Information Exchange

Thanks for the update Shep.

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A&P/I.A., A.A.S./Aviation Maintenance technology
Warbird salvage/recovery
One day I'll get that P-40!

If we are to the point where these images are felt to be at least 85% authentic it seems we ought to be now, in the interest of best saving this treasure, offering suggestions for its best recovery.

There could easily be a top ten list made of most common recovery mistakes. "If I had to do it all over again I'd do this/never do this...." These seldom discussed lessons have probably been learned the hard way over and over again in South Pacific recoveries. Not to mention Russian, Kuril Islands, Alaskan, Australian, etc., locations.

Another list of pointers for P-40-specific dissassembly and transportation suggestions.

Suggestions for minimum tools, laborers, lubricants, packaging materials.

Recommendations (off-line) for dealing with the red-tape, government obstacles, that might be expected/unexpected.

Who are the best in the business that might be available and willing to join in the recovery effort without regard for their own selfish gain?

When are the best/WORST times (wind, sandstorms,etc.) of the year to be working in this area of the world with minimum recovery equipment?

Would sure hate to be reading six months from now of how this whole potentially amazing recovery was ruined by a nightmare list of foolish mistakes.

This is not an indication that the image is altered, this is a typical digital photo compression artifact. Here is an example from the photo CDF posted on the following page. It is a result of how digital photos are processed to conserve details while reducing file size. The photos are genuine. Hope the p-40 isn't destroyed by scrappers and souvenir hunters.

Even if the picture is real, the local government will most certainly claim ownership.

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A&P/I.A., A.A.S./Aviation Maintenance technology
Warbird salvage/recovery
One day I'll get that P-40!

It's real. Very sad, several forums making ill comments and jokes about it. Why? Why is everyone trying so hard to "prove" that it's fake? No modeler or CGI can reproduce that kind of detail.

I also wanted to add about the lack of sand in cockpit-This aircraft could have been buried and then resurfaced several times in the last 70 years. To me the metal surface has that "sand blasted" faded look. It could have been uncovered for years and now somone just happened to come apone it. Or at some point someone could have tampered with the parts.

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Shop the Airplane Bunker At
www.warbirdbunker.com

I guess the local Scorpions will convene a tribal council meeting.
There probably isn't a local gov, maybe some warlords in the area but that is doubtful otherwise the Machine Guns would have been hacked out of the wings.
It might go the route of possession or through a national gov.
Odds are that someone will hack the wings off and haul it away to a storage yard to protect it against being damaged.
Hopefully someone with some knowledge will be involved.

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Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

Well the only way that will happen, at least try to happen, is if we ever find out for sure if it's real and exactly where it is.

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“Knowing what’s right, doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

Excellent summary, Pathfinder. But:



Squadron Operational Record Books (ORBs) are held by the RAF Museum's dept of records (DoRIS) and the National Archives (TNA) Kew (the originals) and I think the Imperial War Museum (IWM) may have copies as well. Some Southern and Eastern Mediterranean unit ORBs are sometimes incomplete or lost. Not my field though.

Given the information we have (and you're usually working the other way around, with a location and sometimes serial which here we don't have) it would be possible for a good researcher to narrow down the options quite quickly.

Good suggestions by L Thompson, obviously what can happen next really depends on exactly where it is - and that 'where' will be under a national jurisdiction who do have to be negotiated with.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

I was referring to a national governmnet. I'm sure the pictures have been very well circulated and somewhere, someone is making arrangements to obtain the plane (if in fact it is real).

_________________
A&P/I.A., A.A.S./Aviation Maintenance technology
Warbird salvage/recovery
One day I'll get that P-40!

I can have a look at the 260SDN ORB (I have a copy) but I wouldn't hold your breath as the records are worse than bad as ORB's go. You may get a pilots name for a loss but rarely if ever a serial number, and I'm still not 100% certain that its a 260DQN bird anyhow.

If a 260SQN aircraft you can remove Feb through to mid April as 260SQN did not have HS codes at that time.

Buz

Gents

I had a look at the 260SQN ORB and have found that they lost 30 Aircraft between 15 April 1942 and 29 AUG 1942 (this last one was added in case the SQN had not finished remarking all aircraft by the end of AUG).

Of these one pilot bailed out (so unlikely to match but then again never say never), and another was destroyed when his aircraft was hit by the blast from an Ammo Truck he was straffing, leaving us 28 contenders. Of those 28 there are 7 Pilot MIA, 2 were KIA, and 4 WIA. the remainder were reported safe.

Of the 28 only 5 serial numbers are known.

To the identification of P-40 airframes, unless a serial number or the aircraft had previously been reported it would actually be extremely hard to identify the airframe off any of the numbers that are commonly found on the P40's, unless you have access to the required information. Owners or people that work on the Kittyhawk airframes will know the tags in the rear canopy scallops, and probably the hand stamped numbers just in front of frame 5 on the lower left longeron, these numbers being the best way to ID an airframe. Who has those records to match the numbers from the airframes to serial numbers, very very few people. I can only think of possibly 6 people who have the Curtiss Billing Ledger which is the gods bible for confirmation of P-40 airframes, as the numbers are not recorded on RAF Form 78's.

Buz

Buz

Interesting to know.

Just because it had a type A roundal does not put it into a specific time frame (except when manufactured). Just because a new roundal style came in did not mean the squadrons went out and painted the new style on all there airframes and especially not for those units in North Africa. (Not to you, just general note to others).

April to Aug 1942 is a good range and they were starting to receive the Kittyhawk III at the end? Aircraft life was short.

If it is the 'Spitfire' reported in the Qattara Depression then I am sure the pilot is still missing so the 7 still classed as missing would be the first to look at. (I am not sure if the rocky terrain matches the description of the Qattara Depression?)

So we need a painted serial which should be visible on the airframe. Construction number painted on the armour plate and the other locations you mention. Even with a serial, it looks as though tying it in with 28 loses or 7 missing pilots is going to be difficult??

It is getting more likely they are photos from the 1970's though I hope I am wrong.

These are some of the 260Sqn missing pilots listed in Stocky Edwards book.

We have a lost of missing pilots with that unit between April and Aug 1942. Need to look at CWGC. All recorded on El Alemein Memorial.

Sgt F W Tregear, 24 04 42
F/Sgt Viesey, 31 04 42 (Not listed CWGC?)
F/Lt T Hindle, 31 May 42
Sgt Clark, 9 June 42 (Not listed CWGC?)
Sgt J C Wrigley, 12 06 42
Sgt Carlisle, 26 06 42 (Not listed CWGC?)
F/Sgt D C H Copping, 28 06 42
F/Lt W R McKay, 14 07 42

Would be good to see the 260 Sqn records, as poor as they are.

regards

Mark

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'Coups De Foudre'
(511FS, 405FG watering hole), St Dizier, France 1944/45

This should silence the "it must be a model/photoshop fake" brigade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFe8C...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LsK74J_W0

Dated last month. I do hope it gets recovered before it is totally ripped apart for souvenirs/scrap.

That first one isn't working for me. The second one however, worries me. It's known about now which means it won't last long.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

What is it about abandoned machinery that makes people want to clamber all over it like a jungle gym. In the first clip there is a fellow standing on the windscreen.

I bet they did as much damage in taking the ammunition out of the wings as the desert did since the day the aircraft came to rest.