Take Back the CAF

[FG1D Pilot]

Diane, This is the wrong place to discuss your grievances! Many have asked you to leave it off this site. That's not what this site is about. I could air many things to counter your claims, but I know where and when to do it. Your rants are just that. Have respect for the organization you claim to care about.

[Taylor Stevenson]

Doug,
With the dissemination of information to the members solely controlled by headquarters, where else would you suggest that the loyal opposition should voice their opinion?
Taylor

[CAPFlyer]

The forum setup and advertised earlier in this very thread. This is not the place to get into the internal politics of the CAF (wait... isn't that a rule here? No politics? Yep. I think that would include the politics of any volunteer organization, CAF, CAP, USCG Aux, Boy Scouts, etc.).

[Chunks]

I tried it several times, and was able to access many of the other topics on WIX without passing through this one. I would say that if you are uninterested or offended by this thread, simply don't read it. As far as politics goes, I don't see the difference between this and the threads where the "non-owners" tell the "owners" how to paint their airplanes, or the "politics" surrounding the recovery of swamp ghost. I don't see that as the type of political discussion that is banned here. A moderator may feel differently...

Chunks

[JDK]

I have no bias in this case.

With the dissemination of information to the members solely controlled by headquarters, where else would you suggest that the loyal opposition should voice their opinion?

As CAPflyer says:

The forum setup and advertised earlier in this very thread.

...I would say that if you are uninterested or offended by this thread, simply don't read it.

Oh, I'm interested. I simply don't understand it (understanding things like this is my job), or know the personalities referred to in first name terms of the "he said she said" history more appropriate to marriage guidance.

It's not comprehensible (beyond the obvious toyset removal level) it's not interesting, it's not edifying, and unlike the discussions on paint, it's not even amusing. (And a minor point, unlike the discussion on Swamp Ghost, it doesn't involve international relations, but the management of a single organisation.)

It shouldn't be banned here, it just shouldn't be here. The internal politics of an organisation will ultimately have to be addressed within that organisation. (I understood that had been done, and I see that someone revives a dead thread some time afterwards to go around again. Not here thanks. I don't 'get it' so far, I don't want to hear more.)

If a disenchanted or disenfranchised body wishes to muster numbers or discuss, they can set up a forum where that is the topic. That's been done. Launder over there, not here. However noble the case may or may not really be, it stinks of sour grapes and bad losers.

Regards,

[LadyO2Pilot]

James….good comments.

As a long time CAF member, I was most disconcerted when this thread began.

I have friends on both sides of this issue and was, in the beginning of the controversy, interested in the details. But I did not anticipate it showing up on WIX. This is definitely not the place. Diane, and those of you who have an interest in debating this issue in public…Someone in your group set up a website for the dissemination of information and discussion…..USE IT. I know I have gone to it many times looking for new information and there was a serious lack of timely posts after the initial flurry. The members of WIX have had to endure the airing of the “dirty laundry” rather than those who specifically were looking for the info on the other site. As Doug says, if you really profess to love the CAF, do you really think having the information of WIX is a good idea? You are poisoning the well from which new membership and volunteers possibly come. But then again, maybe that is your goal despite stated desires.

I feel like the person whose two friends are getting a divorce and I have been asked to choose sides….well I won’t. And I sure don’t want to see this on WIX. Take it to the other site and I, and probably all others who have an interest, will read it there.

[Jack Cook]

I have no opinions cause I really don't car but...........

The forum setup and advertised earlier in this very thread. This is not the place to get into the internal politics of the CAF (wait... isn't that a rule here? No politics? Yep. I think that would include the politics of any volunteer organization, CAF, CAP, USCG Aux, Boy Scouts, etc.).

that's up to Scott and NO one else

[Zachary]

that's up to Scott and NO one else

True dat! Personally, I find this thread very enlightening. As a former CAF colonel, and potentially one again down the road, I find it interesting to know how decisions are made at the top. I'm sure many folks feel the same way when EAA's "politics" get brought up now and again. I'd wager there's some facts strewn about amongst the heresay in this thread that critical thinkers can spot and appreciate.

[SPANNERmkV]

hmmmm...
As long as it is civil, we appear to be exchanging information about Warbirds... albeit focused on an organization with a LOT of them... if Scott and the moderators forebear it I value this thread and I check back in when it pops up.

It is the first place I have heard what some of the beefs were with an issue that cost "my" organization some serious money and some real heart-burn. (Yes I got some of the early emails that were sent around, but as far as hearing what the "players" positions were, it has either been here on WIX or at the Winter Staff Conference where one side didn't come present.
(Yes I am troubled and saddened by some of what has transpired but I am only going to tackle one subject publicly.)

SNOOZE ALERT for non-CAF readers!!!
The only "Beef" I will address here is the one about airplanes being sold and the proceeds going to restoration grants (for exisitng CAF airplanes that could not afford to restore their aircraft) as opposed to purchasing new airplanes.
My very own personal opinion on that one is...
The airplanes that were sold were in the "un-assigned pool" at Midland.
ALL the airplanes belong to the CAF, both assigned and un-assigned.
We elect a General Staff and they make decisions all the time that they determine to be in the best interests of the CAF.

By spending the money that they did on TEXAS RAIDERS and other beneficiaries of Grants they return those planes to airworthy status where they:
1. Get charged a higher ANUAC
2. Generate income that goes to both the local unit and the CAF-HQ in the form of associate memberships for revenue rides.
3. Contribute back into their Minimum Cost Recovery Program account to insure that people don't use up the asset and walk out on it.
4. Get them back Flying, Exhibiting and Remembering
So I thank Steve Brown, the General Staff and the restoration grant committee for that direction!

My own personal history is that I left (actually just became less active) a financially sound Unit to go take on the problems of getting a CAF flagship aircraft back in the air as soon as we could. Life would have been a trainload less stressful if I had just stayed out at West Houston and restored and flown the N3N-3 and not taken on the B17.
That was my choice and I have the chunk of dead tree hanging on the wall thanking me for it! And memories that would NEVER have been thinkable in any other organization.

I imagine the same can be said of all the folks who worked the B-24 and now the B-29.
The CAF has NO REAL competition on getting a B29 flying (at the moment) and the only other B-24 is owned by the inventor of bar code scanners who has enough money to build replica ME-262s and P-51s. I do NOT begrudge Collings, that is not my point at all.
My point in the comparison is...
The CAF is a Confederation of far-flung interests working together to do what it takes multi-millionaires (like Collings or Waltrip or Allen or Weeks or Brooks) to accomplish otherwise.

And most of us do it while working full-time jobs which is what I have to go do now for a while.

SPANNER

Last edited by SPANNERmkV on Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[maradamx3]

I say keep the information coming. Just as some may not want to hear or read about this topic, I don't want to hear those of you saying you don't want to hear or read this stuff. You think someone is going to obey your "recommendation" and stop posting? Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses here. It is, after all, a message board - under "General Discussion" - "The Wix Hangar". General discussion - fairly broad range of topics could go there. "The Wix Hangar", ok, maybe aviation related?? Check. What's the problem? Where does it say what topics cannot be discussed, or can only be discussed? As said earlier, if you don't like it, don't click on the thread. I find it interesting, as do several others based on the amount of traffic. Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread discussion.
Tommy

[JDK]

...As a former CAF colonel, and potentially one again down the road, I find it interesting to know how decisions are made at the top. I'm sure many folks feel the same way when EAA's "politics" get brought up now and again. I'd wager there's some facts strewn about amongst the heresay in this thread that critical thinkers can spot and appreciate.

There may be facts as you say, Zachary, but how are you going to spot them? As has just been said, it's more like a messy divorce, and the 'facts' are being presented to support an a priori point of view.

As I said, I'd be hard pressed to say what's what. A comparison would be the Twin Mustang saga, where, despite a lot of noise smoke and a bit of disinformation, it was possible to draw a conclusion.

I say keep the information coming. Just as some may not want to hear or read about this topic, I don't want to hear those of you saying you don't want to hear or read this stuff. You think someone is going to obey your "recommendation" and stop posting? Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses here. It is, after all, a message board - under "General Discussion" - "The Wix Hangar". General discussion - fairly broad range of topics could go there. "The Wix Hangar", ok, maybe aviation related?? Check. What's the problem? Where does it say what topics cannot be discussed, or can only be discussed? As said earlier, if you don't like it, don't click on the thread. I find it interesting, as do several others based on the amount of traffic. Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread discussion.

The problem, Tommy, as I see it, is it isn't a 'discussion' but a polarised, adversarial rant. Should one side offer the other a gold wrapped diamond and a lifetime apology, we'd still not hear the end of it. There's too much history.

As I said before, the only resolution, rather than throwing or hiding mud, will be within the CAF's governance. I also note (and add) that there is not a mention of an active, likely challenge to the current running of the CAF, which therefore implies that while the matter may be unpopular with some, it's not going to be changed through due process.

As a journalist writing about vintage aviation, one of the sadder parts of my job is listening to rants and bitching by some about others. Generally, unless there's some benefit or injustice to address successfully, I don't report it; as I said before, it mainly makes the winger look bad.

We've had one line drawn under the matter, it all went quiet, and here we are again. I can draw a conclusion from that. In that, I can clearly see that the 'outside' team aren't going to get what makes them happy again from the CAF.

Of course people are going to watch the thread. It's 'interesting' like a road crash or a domestic in the front yard. Like both of those it isn't going to be resolved by the rubberneckers, but by those involved.

Finally, I note that the CAF is solvent, stable and in the process of getting aircraft like Fifi into the air. One person's good financial practice is another's fraud. Unless you can bring that latter complaint home constitutionally (within the organisation) or legally (to the organisation) then it's just sour grapes. This wouldn't be the first time there's been a spinoff group from the CAF. That's positive energy, well used. This isn't.

Please note that none of what I've said is comment on any person, or their own views, but based on input to this thread only.

I've been advised that if I don't like it, I should keep out. That's it, I'm happy to leave this pig wrestle.

Regards,

[Zachary]

For one that's not interested in the thread James, you sure have a lot to say about it.

[EDowning]

I read this entire thread and I have to say I was surprised to see it resurface after it burned out the first time. I am a life member of the CAF but I haven't really been active over the last couple of years. There are many reasons for that but the whole issue here is just another factor. With that said, one of the things that has caused me to drift away from WIX in general is similar to what has caused me to drift away from the CAF and EAA, I really don't want to deal with the drama that comes with the territory. With WIX, it was the locking of threads, "just in case it gets ugly", with the CAF it's a "pilots vs. the little guy volunteers" attitude in the unit, it's not even worth going into the EAA rationale. The point here is that these are all my personal views and I can (and have) adjust my desire to interact to a level that suits my personal interests. It really boils down to the same reason that Baseball is no longer America's exclusive pass time, there are a lot more choices today than in the past, with how you wish to spend your time. If this appeals to you discuss or rant away, just don't expect everyone to be passionate about it.

One other observation, even if I don't have a proverbial dog in the particular hunt, I am always interested in seeing how people respond to certain issues. If someone has posted on many varied topics and provided useful dialogue or debate in the past, I want to read their views on this thread and perhaps a wider range of topics. When someone logs onto WIX and has 15-20 total posts and they are all about this or some other "one issue" thread, then it looks to me like they just came to WIX to rant, not participate. I really don't see much value in that type of poster.

[SPANNERmkV]

That's ALL fine and good!

Just so long as no one disagrees with how I part my hair...

[Lynn Allen]

I read this entire thread and I have to say I was surprised to see it resurface after it burned out the first time. I am a life member of the CAF but I haven't really been active over the last couple of years. There are many reasons for that but the whole issue here is just another factor. With that said, one of the things that has caused me to drift away from WIX in general is similar to what has caused me to drift away from the CAF and EAA, I really don't want to deal with the drama that comes with the territory. With WIX, it was the locking of threads, "just in case it gets ugly", with the CAF it's a "pilots vs. the little guy volunteers" attitude in the unit, it's not even worth going into the EAA rationale. The point here is that these are all my personal views and I can (and have) adjust my desire to interact to a level that suits my personal interests. It really boils down to the same reason that Baseball is no longer America's exclusive pass time, there are a lot more choices today than in the past, with how you wish to spend your time. If this appeals to you discuss or rant away, just don't expect everyone to be passionate about it.

One other observation, even if I don't have a proverbial dog in the particular hunt, I am always interested in seeing how people respond to certain issues. If someone has posted on many varied topics and provided useful dialogue or debate in the past, I want to read their views on this thread and perhaps a wider range of topics. When someone logs onto WIX and has 15-20 total posts and they are all about this or some other "one issue" thread, then it looks to me like they just came to WIX to rant, not participate. I really don't see much value in that type of poster.

Well said Eric, how is your 3350 running? Hope its better than the others...

Fly safe..