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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:41 pm 
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Taras wrote:
I do not represent the National Naval Aviation Museum in any way, shape or form.


Yes, I realize that Taras. Since you work closely with them, I just thought you might have an insider perspective on why they do things that seemingly don't make sense to us outsiders.

Taras wrote:
It is my belief that they represent the 300 million or so Americans that would like to see the airplanes. There are many museums in their system that wish to display SBD’s, Wildcats, and others, but there just aren’t enough of any of the aircraft. There for sure isn’t enough money to do all that every museum would like. So, I think, they weigh all their options and assess their resources to try to present the best they can to the American public.

I would expect them to do that. I just don't understand why they don't sell one or two of their aircraft. The new civilian owner could make a PR campaign out of their newly acquired Lake Michigan bird and thank the U.S. Navy and Naval Museum for their cooperation, etc through interviews, aviation articles and displays while the aircraft participate at airshows. Just think how many people could be exposed to the Lake Michigan/Naval Museum story by displaying a Wildcat or SBD at Oshkosh or Reno or wherever. It could get 100's of thousands of eyes, perhaps more for a televised event. It just seems that a flying "history display" could really reach out and touch more people than being contained in the Pensacola back lot, out of sight and not seen by many people.

Taras wrote:
We may not always agree with the way they do things, but they have really done an outstanding job.

I agree 100%. I'm a big supporter of their Museum and it's really fantastic everything they have done. No arguments there!

Taras wrote:
As for this airplane (Otay SB2C), I would think they want to add it to the “American” public collection without having to remove other important aircraft from that collection.


Perhaps, but really how many SBD's does the Navy need to tell the story of the Battle of Midway? They have, what, like 7 to 10 of those birds? It wouldn't kill them to sell 1 or 2. The Wildcat is not a rare airplane, at least as much as the SBD. I think it would probably get more money on the open market. They have multiples of them as well. I could understand if they didn't want to part with a Hellcat (very rare) or a birdcage Corsair (extremely rare) or something along those lines, but SBD's and F4F's? Added to this, I'm assuming there are many, many more SBD's and F4F's that haven't been recovered, right? Is 1 or 2 being sold off going to kill the Museum when they have a potential for 20 or 30 with future recoveries?

Taras wrote:
For awhile there was a trading program, it seemed to rely on what the Federal Government was willing to release; things such as helicopters and more modern aircraft were common, but it seemed to turn in to a lot of red tape.


HHHmmm, I wonder if this is the real reason why they haven't released any Lake Michigan birds, except for those 2 Wildcats? With all the bureaucratic red tape and political in-fighting over control of the airplanes, is this the real reason? I thought most of that had been resolved with the new NHC (or whatever it's called these days) and the "New Sheriff" in town.

Keep in mind, Taras, my rant is not directed at you. It's just frustrating to us outsiders when the Naval Museum claims they have no money when they have an easy solution in sight - they could sell some of their multiples of SBD's, F4F's, TBM's, etc. Also, another approach might be to "auction off" the rights to recover the Lake birds? They could make a HUGE killing off of that. I have talked to several warbird owners in the past who would put up serious money if they knew they could get a clear, unencumbered, unrestricted title from the Navy for those planes. Put in the stipulation that only A&T would be authorized to do the recovery, so you know it would be done professionally and safely, and you could safeguard measures to protect the plane.

I guess all of us have been frustrated in the past because:
1) the old NHC policies were totally asinine and made no sense
2) the Navy has done a huge disservice to itself in the past with it's bungling of past recovery operations
3) the Navy is not very good at public relations/communications when it comes to explaining it's policies and decisions regarding the Lake birds.

All of that has changed with the new leadership. I certainly support the Navy, Pensacola, and all of their efforts at recovery. And, we all support you, Taras - you are an excellent spokesperson for the recovery of underwater airplanes. I salute all of your hard work and dedication to preserve our Heritage, and I hope you are able to continue - whether you are doing it for profit or not, it doesn't matter. The fact that these priceless pieces of history can now be restored and preserved is all that matters.

Thanks, Taras, for your valuable inputs here as well as keeping us informed on what is going on. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:43 pm 
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RyanShort1 wrote:
Even if the Navy gets all of the airframes / recoveries for now, at least some are being saved, and you never know if something might change the policy down the road.


I totally agree 100%. I'm all for recovery no matter where the planes end up. The fact that they are being saved is good enough for me. Even if not a single one ends up flying again or being released to civilians, that's fine. It's just that the Navy could really fund a lot more restorations with some sales of their excess surplus of Lake birds.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:40 am 
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I really do not think there are many people who want to buy the planes that have been under water.

For right now, it is time to help secure the funding for the Otay SB2C

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:04 am 
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Well, in that light, here I guess are some of the relevant questions:

1. What is the target fundraising audience? Obviously for a lot of folks on this message board, the fact that is not likely to fly (and in a national museum) will put off some (but not all - myself included) of the members here. Also, it would seem to me that the idea of it being moved to Florida is likely to put off some from the San Diego area who might otherwise be seriously interested in the recovery.
2. With a lot of private museums, the perceived public benefactor status (or whatever) is worth some larger donations from interested parties - usually for history's sake. I'm curious (never having been to Pensacola) what the Navy's take on private partnerships and sponsorships is - especially if that meant a nearby display with the sponsors and donors names, etc...
3. Perhaps there could be another innovative idea that would generate more interest... something to Pensacola like if we help you recover and restore the aircraft, then in return, you try to create a traveling display that takes a two year tour of the country with two aircraft (or something like that) to different cities and small towns and raise funding and public awareness of the national museums.

Just my 2¢. Anyone have some other ideas?

Ryan

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:24 am 
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Taras wrote:
I really do not think there are many people who want to buy the planes that have been under water.

For right now, it is time to help secure the funding for the Otay SB2C


Will there be any kind of fund raiser in Chicago?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:52 pm 
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The Navy's airplanes do travel around to different cities and museums. There are something like 800 airplanes in the collection that are spread out all over the country. The San Diego Air and Space and Midway Aircraft Carrier Museums have several airplanes from Lake Michigan. It seems to me that the NNAM is doing what you guys want.

As for what the Chicago area team is planning for the Otay SB2C, I am not sure, other than they are looking to World War II flight and deck crew members for the main support. If you E-mail me I will connect you with them. TarasAtSea@AOL.com

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:20 pm 
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Well I hope the Helldiver is able to be recovered and restored, and I hope to see it placed in a place of honor at Pensacola. For a navy aircraft it is equal to the Hall of Fame.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Obergrafeter wrote:
Thank you Matt for bringing up the AT-10 parts. Probably hit a sore spot with the MUSAF defenders. When all else fails confuse em with facts. P.S. I am talking with another gentleman I met here on WIXs that also has Wichita parts and a complete set of drawings that might result in one of these planes getting in the air.


Yes thanks for bringing that up. It will allow me to once again set facts straight. The AT-10 that is in the NMUSAF is built up of a couple different aircraft. What was left out of the other AT-10's was not much as the other airframes were parts aircraft. Pima has one of these scrapped and non existant airframes.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Taras wrote:
I really do not think there are many people who want to buy the planes that have been under water.
Interesting opinion knowing that two Wildcats are/were flying that were recovered out of Lake Michigan and the interest Doug Champlin had in the saltwater TBD. Maybe the interest has waned due to the way the Navy has conducted itself?

Wasn't there an SBD confiscated in Chicago by the Navy? Who recovered that one and whatever happened to it?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:25 pm 
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Um, just want to point something out; Some of the aircraft in the Naval Museum and other museums once had civilian registrations and flew until purchased . The Dauntless owned by the Marine Corps museum was flown to the museum with a civil N-number in the 1970's. Same with the Corsair that was loaned to Battleship park in Alabama.
I am a proponent of raising those battle weary Dauntlesses, Wildcats , Corsairs, and even a few TBF's in an exchange program where the U.S. Navy loans their relics for display so museums can release some of these airplanes(those with civilian paperwork) back into civilian hands. This would generate a lot of cash for the museums.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:10 am 
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I don't think you got your facts straight on the AT-10 parts there Mustangdriver. Pima doesn't have an AT-10, they have an AT-9........close but no cigar.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:17 am 
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The AT-9 is the aircraft I have always heard Matt complain about. Does it really mater for some of you guys? The NMNA or NMUSAF could find Noah's Ark and it still wouldn't be good enough for you.

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 Post subject: ????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:49 am 
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Quote:
Taras wrote:
I really do not think there are many people who want to buy the planes that have been under water.

Has anyone heard of Dottie Mae :shock: :idea: :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:23 am 
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Nope check back a page we specifically talked about the AT-10 Wichita not the Jeep. By the way the Jeep came from right down the road (Roger Freeman)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:03 pm 
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'Nother recent article...

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jul/31/1m31plane001745-wwii-planes-number-doesnt-match-re/


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