Afghanistan A-10 "Danger Close"

[Shay]

Thank god no one was hurt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abyB5qnkZ1A&feature=related

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[muddyboots]

their point almost got it. I wonder if the pilot thought the Brits were Indians or if he just slipped off target... I have never been under a strike like that but I've been near enough to never ever want to be where those boys were That would be a pucker factor nine, especially after it's over...

[Randy Haskin]

I think we've talked about that one before on WIX.

Even though the title of the video says "Jan 08", I think it's from 2007 at least...it is on YouTube with another title but the same video.

The problem is that from that video you can't really tell what's going on. You don't know where all the friendly forces are, you don't know where the enemy forces are, and you don't know where the controller *told* the A-10 to strafe.

Just because the guy holding the camera was scared and surprised at how close the second shot is does NOT mean that the JTAC and the ground commander were also surprised. It also does not mean that the A-10 missed his target.

[muddyboots]

I dunno Randy, there was a reason why tehy were all hooting at the first one, and someone in the rear asked if they were all right. That first one, by their reactions, was somewhat close. The second one, tho, shocked the tar out of the guy with the camera (I assume a Sgt) and the two guys out on point were running for life and limb. Sure, they pilot may have been well on target, and I'm sure they also saw the Brits (overhead cam IS that amazing) but it was still close enough to scare the piss out of the grunts, AND close enough to let you see the fireballs from the blast, which IME is REALLY close. Certainly close enough for those submunitions to have done some damage if the guys hadn't already been pretty close to teh ground, neh?

Either way, that's why they sell life insurance.

[Randy Haskin]

Fair enough...but that's what we get paid to do: put ordnance exactly on the bad guys and not hit the good guys, especially when it's danger close.

This sign was on the door to my squadron at Bagram...the last thing pilots and WSOs looked at walking out the door to fly on a mission:



It is a sacred mission and a sacred trust so far as I'm concerned.

[CAPFlyer]

It would be interesting to see the HUD video from those runs. Looking at the terrain, I would almost think that the A-10 pilot saw something the Brits didn't and put rounds down on guys who were right under them in those mini-stream bottoms or whatever they were in the terrain. I think that's why the squad leader called for them to pull back in addition to the "scared out of their mind" factor. If he thought it was a "bad pass", I would suspect he would have been on the ISR to have the JTAC call off the runs or been yelling to him to do that after they got back on the road. Instead he told the boys to pull back, suggesting that he thought the pass was good and there really was a threat that close to them.

[Shay]

Hey Randy,

Do you know if the Brits (or other coalition forces) use Blue Force Tracker some such similar systems??

Thanks

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[muddyboots]

It would be interesting to see the HUD video from those runs. Looking at the terrain, I would almost think that the A-10 pilot saw something the Brits didn't and put rounds down on guys who were right under them in those mini-stream bottoms or whatever they were in the terrain. I think that's why the squad leader called for them to pull back in addition to the "scared out of their mind" factor. If he thought it was a "bad pass", I would suspect he would have been on the ISR to have the JTAC call off the runs or been yelling to him to do that after they got back on the road. Instead he told the boys to pull back, suggesting that he thought the pass was good and there really was a threat that close to them.

that sgt wouldn't be the one to do that. That would have been his platoon leader or sgt, ime. His job would be to get his men away immediately without screwing around. You can hear the folks in the rear calling to see if he's okay, so there is a rear echelon better suited to fdarting around on the radio than the point element of his unit, which needs to be deassing the ao instead, eh?

It would be pretty cool to see that recording. You KNOW it's out there somewhere I agree tho, he could well have decided that if they were too close to the incoming munitions, then they were also too close to the indians. After all, one of the basic tactics of guerrillas is to "hug the waist" to prevent us from using air cover and artillery in the first place... It's called danger close for a reason.

[jet1]

I think we've talked about that one before on WIX.

Even though the title of the video says "Jan 08", I think it's from 2007 at least...it is on YouTube with another title but the same video.

The problem is that from that video you can't really tell what's going on. You don't know where all the friendly forces are, you don't know where the enemy forces are, and you don't know where the controller *told* the A-10 to strafe.

Just because the guy holding the camera was scared and surprised at how close the second shot is does NOT mean that the JTAC and the ground commander were also surprised. It also does not mean that the A-10 missed his target.

there seem to be lots of armchair quarterbacks at times here

[JDK]

there seem to be lots of armchair quarterbacks at times here

Sure - but with input from people like Randy and Muddy, that's balanced out by some expert insight.

[Randy Haskin]

It would be pretty cool to see that recording. You KNOW it's out there somewhere

Currently most HUD tapes of combat operations are classified, although some leak. Although I was able to make copies of some of my HUD footage when I played in Shock N Awe in 2003, currently (since I was there in '07) there is a very tight lid on it. This is for the protection of the crews (again, it's very easy to MIS-interpret what is happening on a HUD tape if you don't have other information about the larger context of what was happening at the time), although we've discussed on WIX before that HUDs also display information that can reveal classified capabilities about the aircraft it comes from.

Do you know if the Brits (or other coalition forces) use Blue Force Tracker some such similar systems??

Some do, some don't. Depends on who they are.

Remember that BFT is primarily a tool for ground commanders to use -- it doesn't provide any information into the cockpit (most) of air support aircraft. Given how fluid the ground situation is in Afghanistan, it is challenging to know where ALL the friendly players are in an AO.

I have been to TICs where the ground commander I was supporting did not know there were other coalition forces in the area until I saw them and told the JTAC about it.

JTAC: "Everything north of town is hostile and you are cleared to engage."

Me: "Hey, I've got three HMMWVs north of town rolling along a treeline....confirm that you have no forces on the north side of town?"

JTAC: "Uhhhhh, let me get back to you on that."

This is exactly what happened with the A-10 fratricide against the British forces in Iraq in 2003.

[muddyboots]

I think we've talked about that one before on WIX.

Even though the title of the video says "Jan 08", I think it's from 2007 at least...it is on YouTube with another title but the same video.

The problem is that from that video you can't really tell what's going on. You don't know where all the friendly forces are, you don't know where the enemy forces are, and you don't know where the controller *told* the A-10 to strafe.

Just because the guy holding the camera was scared and surprised at how close the second shot is does NOT mean that the JTAC and the ground commander were also surprised. It also does not mean that the A-10 missed his target.

there seem to be lots of armchair quarterbacks at times here

Randy is currently an F15 driver, and I am a medically retired grunt who was in almost every shooting match we had between 88 and 98. We both know our side of the story. This isn't a blame that asshole thing, it's more just chatting about something that we both know is part of baking the cake. On Randy's side is, as he commented, an almost religous devotion to not making mistakes. On my side is a very deep gratitude to guys like him, and the knowledge that mistakes happen in every profession and when you chose to wear the green, you accept the risks. And act appropriately yourself.

[CAPFlyer]

that sgt wouldn't be the one to do that. That would have been his platoon leader or sgt, ime. His job would be to get his men away immediately without screwing around. You can hear the folks in the rear calling to see if he's okay, so there is a rear echelon better suited to fdarting around on the radio than the point element of his unit, which needs to be deassing the ao instead, eh?

MB, the Brits are at least partially equipped with similar headset ISRs like our guys are. This means that there's no "fiddling with a radio", just pushing a button on your gear and yelling like crazy back to the CP. Between not hearing anyone do that ("Hey CP, what the h*ll are these guys doing?") and him then telling the CP "Yeah, we're fine" once back on the road was what gives me the impression either they don't have ISRs or they were spooked because the bad guys were really that close.

One problem with these videos is that you don't get to hear what's coming over the ISRs if they have them, so there's no telling what might have also been said there (I've heard some interesting chatter watching post-exercise training videos that had the radio freq's spliced in).

[muddyboots]

Well, CAP, if they were ISR equipped, that section leader prolly wouldn't have been yelling at the guys to his rear like that, they'd both have been poking their buttons, since one of the reason they're equipped is to lower OUR noise level and help obscure where we are from them if possible. I dunno what SOP for them is (when I was in they were still being tested by the 4th's Century 21 Brigade) but the Sgt still never said anything beyond yelling pull back a lot and yeah we're cool a lot. That tells me somebody in the rear was on overwatch and talking to the JTAC about the shooting...I just noticed taht was a machine gun section...I'm trying to figure out how the BRits are organized these days, maybe it'll give me an idea what they were about.

Speaking of how soldiers operate, I thought you guys might like to see some room clearing practice the 2nd ACR did recently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R89vhiua ... re=related

Toujours Pret babay!

[Shay]

I wonder if the rail system will mount on those brooms and swabs?

Shay
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Semper Fortis