Re: To recover or not recover Pacific warbirds??

[Kaigun Fan]

Hello,

I sat on the sidelines long enough on this debate. Frankly, it makes me sick that some people think warbirds including super-rare ones like a Type 99 "Val" dive-bomber should be left "where they are" in the Pacific.

How can this be good for their survival? Between the scrap-men, local natives, corrosive elements and treasure hunters, they will be totally gone in just a few years.

For example, I have pictures of natives using a "Judy" dive-bomber wing as a bridge.

What a waste. I hope that we see some more successful recovery operations before it is too late. If you care about our warbirds & WW II history, support recovery - this is my view anyway.

Kaigun Fan

[oz rb fan]

in mt opion they should all be salvaged be fore the elements(and scrappers etc)destroy them forever the tourism market is only short term as they will be to dangerous to vist soon and by then it's too late to recover them.
i'd love to see a val,pete,betty,jakeand a few others in at least static restored codition to be saved for future generations but with the current situation it's looking doubtful if i'll ever see these aircraft in the flesh.
paul

[Glen]

I too feel that if SOMETHING in a postive way is not done to save these artfacts that they will be gone forever ! I seem to remember a small groupof Men in the Valley of Texas that seem to feel the same way as they looked on at the Total melt down of the most mighty Airforce that has ever been known. Any and all efforts need to be made to either perserve them in the state that they are in such a shelter or to be moved to a museum that will restore them to such. ! just my 2 Cents on the matter .

[n5151ts]

otherwise they will eventually just be a pile of smelter fodder...and in many cases are already. (recover those as well and stick them in museums)

[Jungle Bob]

Obviously some jungle birds will never be saved due to them being too far gone or tourism reasons.

However the rest should be saved. In the world of preservation, people who advocate that they should stay where they are should be put in jail.

I was told by one aviation enthusiast that he considered Justin Taylan as the devil incarnate when it came to preserving history. Personally I prefer antichrist.

[DoraNineFan]

In my opinion, everything that can be saved should be saved at this point (not just in the South Pacific, but everywhere.) It's a race against natural deterioration and against a global economy hungry for raw materials. Also, veterans and those who appreciate the significance of these relics are growing older and passing on and upcoming generations are not going to recognize their importance. As for the relics of New Guinea being considered tourist attractions, I think at some point the scrappers are going to offer more money to the locals entrusted with their protection than the few tourist who come to see a pile of corroded aluminum.

The only thing accomplished from the battle over the Swamp Ghost is to save it from the terrible fate of a proper conservation by qualified people and being given a home where it could be viewed by thousands of visitors.

[oz rb fan]

The only thing accomplished from the battle over the Swamp Ghost is to save it from the terrible fate of a proper conservation by qualified people and being given a home where it could be viewed by thousands of visitors.[/quote]
here here i think justin taylan has a lot to answer for,if these relics arent saved they will be dust or pots before
my life is done

[tom d. friedman]

doraninefan's statement sums up the quandry of what all & who are involved in with preserving dying history. isn't there some body of international government relations that could come together as a cooperative ?? time is running out between the torch & the elements. as i've said the warbird movement has reared it's ugly side now more than ever. unscrupulous 3rd world government croneys over seeing illegal recoveries w/ $$$$ kick backs, smelter happy salvagers shipping history off to china. could the u.n. step in?? after all ww 2 was a collective worldwide effort between nations, & there must be away to responsibly preserve history without these 3rd world nations using their trump card of autonomous government.

In my opinion, everything that can be saved should be saved at this point (not just in the South Pacific, but everywhere.) It's a race against natural deterioration and against a global economy hungry for raw materials. Also, veterans and those who appreciate the significance of these relics are growing older and passing on and upcoming generations are not going to recognize their importance. As for the relics of New Guinea being considered tourist attractions, I think at some point the scrappers are going to offer more money to the locals entrusted with their protection than the few tourist who come to see a pile of corroded aluminum.

The only thing accomplished from the battle over the Swamp Ghost is to save it from the terrible fate of a proper conservation by qualified people and being given a home where it could be viewed by thousands of visitors.

[Jim MacDonald]

I find it hilarious that Justin Taylan himself has given an excellent public testimony for the side of recovering abandoned warbirds.

In an old episode of Discovery Channel's Dogfights (which I'm watching right now), he takes an aircraft accident investigator to examine Pug Southerland's crashed F4F on Guadalcanal. Taylan had visited the F4F only two years earlier & the wreckage had consisted of at least a wing & the tail section. When they got to the location during the show, the engine & prop were found fairly quickly, however the only other piece of wreckage that could be found was a small piece of one wing. The rest of the wreckage according to Justin "it seems that mother nature has carried those items further down" a ravine during a mud slide or it had been covered by the mud.

If that wasn't enough of a wake up call for him, I guess he's beyond hope of ever seeing that the common sense thing to do is to recover them NOW.

Mac

[F3A-1]

I believe LESS government is what we need. I propose a change at home (good ol USA) first. People with personal agendas have been the ones to seek and recieve legal support, thus removing the ability of individuals and groups to recover any abandoned Naval, and in some cases Army Air/Air Force aircraft. I believe it is more productive for us to continue to pressure the Navy (NHC) to change Naval policy and admit they abandoned and no longer own most of the WWII aircraft world wide. I will be addressing these issues in a letter to members of Congress in the next few days. The current Naval policies are lobbied to the Secretary of the Navy and members of Congress behind closed doors. The aviation community, who I feel strongly support the position of recovery, are unheard. In the past I have stated that I am suprised that more recoveries have not occured since my confrontation with the U.S. Navy. The time is at hand for another non-profit 501-c corporation to put continued public pressure on the Secretary of the Navy and Congress. I have waited for someone to step forward and fill this need.

Since I too, can be viewed as having an agenda, I would like to see someone else step forward, but my patience is fading fast.

Pirate Lex
http://www.BrewsterCorsair.com

[DoraNineFan]

doraninefan's statement sums up the quandry of what all & who are involved in with preserving dying history. isn't there some body of international government relations that could come together as a cooperative ?? time is running out between the torch & the elements. as i've said the warbird movement has reared it's ugly side now more than ever. unscrupulous 3rd world government croneys over seeing illegal recoveries w/ $$$$ kick backs, smelter happy salvagers shipping history off to china. could the u.n. step in?? after all ww 2 was a collective worldwide effort between nations, & there must be away to responsibly preserve history without these 3rd world nations using their trump card of autonomous government.

Very interesting and valid questions. Although my first reaction is that adding layers of bureaucracy will make it more difficult to save anything. I also think it could lead to policies similar to the "rot in place" viewpoint of the USN, where every remote wreck will be given a nice stone marker with bronze plaque and we rely on the honor system to prevent anyone touching it or removing it piece by piece. Even worse, 100 years into the future, every visitor could be issued a metal detector to experience the few remains of a war relic 6 inches under the soil.

Most of what remains of the US Civil War relics were gathered up into museums and private collections--not left where they fell. Some of the "sacred" battlegrounds where history was to be preserved have been under threat from real estate development (Disney in VA) and will probably continue to be. This is just to illustrate that time marches on.

[Kaigun Fan]

Hello,

This whole situation just sickens me. Pretty soon there will be nothing left to even display "as is." Some of these aircraft like the Betty, Irving and Val are incredibly rare and should be saved for future generations.

It is sad that there is also very little interest in WW II in Japan. There have been a few movies lately like "Letters from Iwo Jima", etc. but they have very few WW II aircraft over there. They just try to forget.

I sincerely hope somebody has the drive, will and determination to at least save a few of these "ghosts" before they are lost forever, which will be very soon.

Concerned Kaigun Fan

[Jungle Bob]

Well said guys. Certainly anything that gaurantees the survival of these veterans is worth doing.

Taylans proposition that they are memorials to the fallen is ridiculous. In a few short years they will ll be gone through scrap or corosssion.

And another thing, he went to illegally intefere in a government approved operation. He got caught by the police for illegally entering the Solomons.
How can he alledge that he was held captive for five weeks.

Justin, move on. Can your ridiculous website

Taylans proposition that they are memorials to the fallen is ridiculous. In a few short years they will ll be gone through scrap or corosssion.

Except the ones with MIA's still in them, or near them.

Very poor choice of words IMHO

[shelldrake]

It seems that Taylan has once again upset alot of people. This thread could go on and on without anyone realising what or who is really behind these activities. Jungle Bob(JB), who has been accused of being Rob Griniert seems to know alot about what Taylan does. JB also seems to know who to call and get specific details about Taylans activities. I think there is more to this 'relationship' than what we have been led to believe.

There are a number of people who have no interest in warbird recoveries who are watching the actions of a number of people in and around Australia. We live in difficult times and Australia's reputation with our immediate neighbours is at an all time low. Added to this is, that if anyone can conduct themsleves in such a way that they can cause war relics to be removed from one country and delivered to another, via a third transient nation, allegedy using false documentation, as has been identified by the recent PNG inquiry, are a major concern to national security.

You can dispute this as much as you like, but recent history has taught us that such people will do whatever they feel in necessary to get what they want. Its an ego trip and an addiction at the same time. I believe this incident in the Solomons will develop into a much broader issue that links Australia's concerns for security in nearby pacific nations. Time will tell. I recall in one of the threads on the swamp ghost a number of non warbird parties adding to that forum and as we now know, their predictions came true.

As for who and or what JB is or on about, time will tell.


Shelldrake.