Lake Michigan recoveries - some pics

[Swiss Mustangs]

Hi all

I do not want to stir up any heated discussion.... I am aware of the fact that this is a fragile topic.... I simply came across some photographs on www.aircraftslides.com and thought to post them here to show some details...



















Cordially
Martin

WOW are they all saved nowdays?

[warbird1]

WOW are they all saved nowdays?

No, the Navy insists that they not be saved. Current philsophy is to let them sit on the bottom of the ocean or lake for hundreds of more years, so future archeaologists can observe the colored aluminum oxide that used to be an airplane.

[Nathan]

WOW! Was this recent that these were recovered? I am about to have a heart attack!


I always dramed of seeing something like this.....they all look to be in GREAT shape. Oh man, I wish I won the lottery.

[John Kerr]

For more photos and a listing of the aircraft recovered, See "Warbirds Worldwide" Issue # 41, dated July 1997. Article by Joe Cupido and myself.

[JDK]

WOW are they all saved nowdays?

No, the Navy insists that they not be saved. Current philsophy is to let them sit on the bottom of the ocean or lake for hundreds of more years, so future archeaologists can observe the colored aluminum oxide that used to be an airplane.

Never mind a few facts either... As said, by John Kerr (Hi John!) these aircraft were there around 1997. I'm presuming these photo feature aircraft currently on display at the NMUSNA, some unrestored but conserved, the majority restored to display condition.

AFAIK, two Grumman Wildcats have been recovered from Lake Michigan and restored to fly in private hands. (AFAIK the only sucessful restorations to fly from long term immersion.)

You or I can't go and do this with any other wrecks now, because the USN says "No".

As Martin says the argument's been hashed over to death, but lets also acknowledge the facts of what happened to the subjects of the photos.

On topic, the condition of these freshwater deep recoveries is remarkable, IMHO.

Cheers,

One long term immersion wreck now flying again would be Chuck Greenhill's Duck. She was put upside down in a lagoon in the Bahamas, after being surplused. I can't think of any others at the moment.

Oh, and of the two Wildcats, one is now in the museum in Hawaii and the other has been purchased by Rod Lewis.

[F3A-1]

Thanks for posting the photos. I feel more emotions than most with this topic. The public needs to keep the Navy on the defense, by continuing to recover these historic aircraft. After my case, I had expected more movement from the warbird community in efforts to raise the Lake Michigan planes, but it seems not to be. I have emersed myself in law and Navy "policies" (which are not usually civil statutes). I have even debated a Navy attorney privately and he agreed that some of my "loopholes" and use of existing maritime law would hold up in federal court.

I can not recover the planes with my meager assets. If I could I would be back in the fight.

Pirate Lex
http://www.BrewsterCorsair.com

[DoraNineFan]

WOW are they all saved nowdays?

No, the Navy insists that they not be saved. Current philsophy is to let them sit on the bottom of the ocean or lake for hundreds of more years, so future archeaologists can observe the colored aluminum oxide that used to be an airplane.

I'm worried about the Zebra mussel invasion into the Great Lakes and what they may do to the planes that are left--either seriously damaging the airframes or making them too heavy to lift.

Hopefully recovery will become possible sooner than later or, in the least, some remote camera observations to verify the condition of the wrecks to ensure they are not compromised.

[RickH]

I've been told by the guy who recovered these aircraft for the Navy that there is a birdcage Corsair and one or two other aircraft worthy of salvage. He said that the others they found have been severely damaged by the Zebra mussels and that after the 3 recoveries planned there will be no more.

Doesn't mean that there aren't any more aircraft, just that the NMNA won't let them be recovered.

[Joe Scheil]

The numbers were posted here once. There were 110 or so aircraft of which 10-15 had been recovered. There is a flying F4F that was there that is civilian among others.

There are 70 SNJ aircraft, and the remaining 40 or so are F4F, SBD and One F4U....

[Dan K]

Yes, a topic beaten repeatedly; but one hopefully that will not die.

I'd like to reiterate (slightly) something James mentioned in his post--that he presumes a majority of what has been recovered has been conserved in some form. For the most part that is true; however, I've been led to believe that a considerable amount of recovered material has also been scrapped.

In 2005, I photographed the remains of the last SB2A the Navy recovered from Tullahoma to Pensacola. Later I received reports that a few bits were pulled off those remains (to complete the SB2A project now on display in the museum), and that the rest was then scrapped. Is anyone able to confirm this report?

[daveymac82c]

Those pictures are amazing. It's crazy to think that there are still so many airframes down in the deep.

What would be the worst that could happen if someone were to totally ignore the navy and recover the airplanes?

The way I see it, the Navy might steal them away from the people who recovered it, but would probably then store them, or even restore them to some sort of preserved state.

Obviously it would be a loss for the people recovering them, but at least we could all sleep well knowing that they're not at the bottom of a lake or ocean anymore.

Or...... would you get put in jail for recovering them?

-David

[cg51]

I just found this article, it lists based on accident reports and logs what was lost out on the lake, 140 planes and 3 drones!
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-6i.htm

[51fixer]

Those pictures are amazing. It's crazy to think that there are still so many airframes down in the deep.

What would be the worst that could happen if someone were to totally ignore the navy and recover the airplanes?

The way I see it, the Navy might steal them away from the people who recovered it, but would probably then store them, or even restore them to some sort of preserved state.

Obviously it would be a loss for the people recovering them, but at least we could all sleep well knowing that they're not at the bottom of a lake or ocean anymore.

Or...... would you get put in jail for recovering them?

-David

If you have a relative who is a good lawyer or a pile of cash to give to a lawyer you might have a chance.
Through a friend I was shown pictures of a clandastine mission to an Alaskian island. The pics showed Army truck and white pickups parked in a hangar. Place was abandoned in the early 70s as I recall. From a dump many WWII parts were recovered, some new in wooded crates. After recovering these objects they were forced to turn them over to the FBI or face arrest and jail time.
Someone who came through POF Museum one time showed me some pics taken by this guy's brother in law. He was on a forward deployment excersise to some remote Alaskian island with his P-3 and crew. They found a large depression in the earth with sections of buried aircraft sticking out of the ground. One photo was a guy leaning against the vertical of a P-38 growing out of the earth. After the war they dug a hole and pushed the aircraft into it and covered them up with dirt.
Rich