Warbird Information Exchange

P-40N 44-7977 (diagonal stripes on aft fuselage) & 44-7663 with rocket stubs. Were they ever used in combat?

44-7501/8000 Curtiss P-40N-35-CU Warhawk
44-7977 (MSN 33717) sold by War Assets Corp

44-7501/8000 Curtiss P-40N-35-CU Warhawk
44-7663 (MSN 33403) sold by War Assets Corp as lot 134

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1. P-40N-35-CU s/n 44-7977 accepted at Curtiss, Buffalo 04Oct44; 369th FGp De Ridder AAB, LA 09Oct44; (deployed Lafayette, LA 13Jan-01Feb45; Hammond Air Field, LA 26Apr-04May45); unit moved to Stuttgart AAF, AL 04May45; 74th Reconnaissance Gp Stuttgart AAF, AL 19Jul45; 383rd AAF Base Unit Stuttgart AAF, AL 17Aug45 as RP-40N; RFC Walnut Ridge 22Aug45

2. P-40N-35-CU s/n 44-7956 accepted at Curtiss, Buffalo 04Oct44; 369th FGp De Ridder AAB, LA 15Oct45; (deployed Lafayette, LA 13Jan-01Feb45; Godman Field, KY 05Mar-08Mar45); unit moved to Stuttgart AAF, AL 08Mar45; (deployed Lafayette, LA 05Jun-09Jun45; 12Jun-19Jun45); 74th Reconnaissance Gp Stuttgart AAF, AL 19Jul45; 383rd AAF Base Unit Stuttgart AAF, AL 17Aug45; RFC Walnut Ridge 20Aug45

3. P-40N-35-CU s/n 44-7633 accepted at Curtiss, Buffalo 12Aug44; 372nd FBGp Pollock AAF, LA16Aug44; (deployed Esler AAF, LA 08-24Oct44, Okmulgee Field, OK 05Nov-05Dec44; Lafayette, LA 17Dec44-05Jan45); unit moved to Esler AAF, LA 10Feb45; 331st AAF Base Unit Barksdale 06Jun45; 372nd FGp Esler AAF, LA 28Jul45; RFC Walnut Ridge (date?)

4. P-40N-5-CU s/n 42-105657 received at Contractor 15Jul43; to Buffalo Modification Center by air 16Aug43; (to 369th Fgp at De Ridder AAB, LA?); ground collision on landing 07Mar44 at Bowling Green Municipal, KY (Harvey J Pontiff, 11th TRS/74th FG); 314th AAF Base Unit De Ridder AAB, LA 05Feb45; 369th FGp at Lafayette, LA 14May45; unit moved to Stuttgart AAF, AL 25May45; 74th Reconnaissance Gp Stuttgart AAF, AL 19Jul45; 383rd AAF Base Unit Stuttgart AAF, AL 17Aug45; RFC Walnut Ridge 18Aug45;

5. P-40N-15-CU s/n 42-106170 received at Contractor 28Aug43; to Bell Modification Center by air 19Sep43; to Esler AAF, LA 15Nov43 (69th Reconnaissance Gp?); with 69th Reconnaissance Gp Campbell AAF, KY on/by 06Oct44; 69th Reconnaissance Gp William Northern AAF, TN (deployed) 08Oct44; 69th Reconnaissance Gp Esler AAF, LA 15Oct44; 372nd FGp Stewart AFB, NY (deployed) 05Dec44; 372nd FGp Pollock AAF, LA 10Dec44; 69th Reconnaissance Gp Hammond Field, LA 17Jan45; 372nd FGp Pollock AAF, LA 21Jan45; 353rd AAF Base Unit Esler AAF, LA 23Jan45; 2539th AAF Base Unit Foster Field, TX (Training Command) 11May45 as TP-40N; taxiing accident Foster Field 22May45 (David W Winn); to RP-40N 27Sep45; RFC Walnut Ridge 26Sep45

6. P-40N-30-CU s/n 44-7061 accepted at Curtiss, Buffalo 14Apr44; Martin Mod Centre, Omaha 25Apr44; Buffalo Mod Center 11May44; 343rd AAF Base Unit Hillsborough AAF, FL 20Jul44; 347th AAF Base Unit Key AAF, MS 16Sep44; 126th AAF Base Unit Walterboro, SC as RP-40N 29Mar45; RFC Walnut Ridge 28Sep45

7. P-40N-5-CU s/n 42-105547 received at Contractor 10Jul43; to Buffalo Mod Center by air 20Jul43; William Northern AAF, TN 07Aug43; 10th Reconnaissance Sqn Esler AAF, LA Field (date?); 69th Reconnaissance Gp Esler AAF, LA 27Oct44; 372nd FGp Pollock AAF, LA 21Jan45; 353rd AAF Base Unit Esler AAF, LA 20Feb45; 2539th AAF Base Unit Foster Field, TX (Training Command) 11Apr45; to TP-40N 11May45; 261st AAF Base Unit Abilene AAB, TX 22Jul45; 2539th AAF Base Unit Foster Field, TX 25Jul45; RFC Walnut Ridge 22Sep45

8. P-40N-10-CU s/n 42-106021 received at Contractor 23Aug43; to Buffalo Mod Center by air 03Sep43; Bowling Green Municipal, KY 15Nov43; 2140th AAF Base Unit (Training Command) Campbell AAF, KY 13Jun44; 353rd AAF Base Unit Esler AAF, LA 26Jun44; 69th Reconnaissance Gp (deployed) Muskogee AAF, OK 27Oct44; 69th Reconnaissance Gp Esler AAF, LA 05Nov44; 372nd FGp Pollock AAF, LA 21Jan45; 353rd AAF Base Unit Elser AAF, LA 23Jan45; 2539th AAF Base Unit (Training Command) Foster Field, TX 17Apr45; to TP-40N 01Jun45; RFC Walnut Ridge 22Sep45

9. P-40N-25-CU s/n 43-24573 accepted 08Feb44 at Curtiss, Buffalo; to Harlingen, TX (Training Command) 13Mar44; landing accident, material failure Runway 8, Eagle Pass AAF, TX 19Sep44 (Willis H Hatch, Jr); 2529th AAF Base Unit Moore Field, TX 08Nov44 (Training Command); landing accident Moore Field 19Dec44 (David G Knight); to TP-40N 09Jan45; 2539th AAF Base Unit Foster Field, TX 29Mar45; ground loop Foster Field 06Jun45 (Robert L Krall); landing accident Foster Field 14Jul45 (Zean G Gassman, Jr); to RP-40N 24Sep45; RFC Walnut Ridge (date?)

10. P-40N-35-CU s/n 44-7663 accepted 17Aug44 at Curtiss, Buffalo; 369th FGp De Ridder AAB, LA 20Aug44; (Brownwood AAF, TX 09Sep-05Oct44; Lafayette, LA 19Jan-01Feb45); unit moved to Stuttgart AAF, AL 08Jul45; RFC Walnut Ridge 20Aug45

I see "RP-40N" in your info for #1, #5, #6 & #9. Wiki suggests that RP was for Reconnaissance.
I see "TP-40N" in your info for #5, #7, #8 & #9, but they aren't TP's.

This website associates RP with TP.
http://www.p40warhawk.com/Variants/P-40N.htm
Three P-40N-25-CUs were converted as two-seat trainers under the designation RP-40N-26-CU.

Joe Baugher lists shows 44-7084, 44-7086, 44-7156 as TP-40N's.
https://www.aircraftinformation.info/JB ... 944_1.html

#6 44-7061 is a TP-40N (you can see the aft canopy and aft mounted antenna), but it isn't listed as such on Joe Baugher's web page and is listed as a RP-40N in your info above.
44-7061 (MSN 32801) sold by War Assets Corp as lot 1439

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Can anyone ID the squadron insignia on #4?

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All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)

The R stood for "Restricted" not reconnaissance.
Remember, in WWII the reconnaissance function was "F" for Foto.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

Info is from the individual aircraft records; hence primary source rather than someone else's guess.

Unit markings should be last unit assignment prior to Walnut Ridge.

Odd that there are so many errors with the TP's.

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A 'T' prefix means "training", not "two-seater". In other examples, a TF-86D is a training single-seater. There are other examples of this; the cards are not in error.

R stood for "Restricted" between 1943-1947.
That meant it was not fit for its original mission, usually given to obsolete types.
The USAAF A-25 Helldivers became RA-25s late in the war. Same with A-24s.

So did the USAAF think the P-40 was obsolete in 1945?
My P-40 pilots handbook has an introduction saying ...
"True, no more P-40s are being sent to the war theatets. Instead we are sending P-47s, P-51s, P-38s and even newer aircraft. We're sending them for good reason: they're better aircraft than the P-40".
pg.5. Undated edition.

So, if planes at Walnut Ridge are RP-40s, it was because they were already deemed obsolete, not because they were recon types. How do we know? The R for Recon term had not been invented yet, photo equipped P-40s probably would have been called FP-40s...if anyone cared to do the paperwork. Most likely, they were just called camera P-40s.
If they were assigned to a Recon units they were probably used as training types.

The R for Reconnaissance prefix came about in the 1947 system revamp..when the Ps turned to Fs.
Before 1947 if something was called a RP- it meant a restricted pursuit.
(Makes sense because by the time the R for recon came into effect, a P would have been a F. So there was never a RP...Recon Pursuit.)

There weren't many camera equipped P-40s. But there were some...modified post production.
They were P-40N-16s (modified from -15s) and -26s (modified from -25s).
If they were built by Curtiss, I believe they would have had an even number Block number.

There were 22 (or 30) two seat P-40-31 produced by Curtiss after earlier aircraft were converted in the field.
Peter M. Bowers says they were called TP-40s, but that designation "may not have been official".

And to really confuse historians...3 P-40N-26 camera ships were converted to two seat configuration.
I wonder if they retained their cameras after conversion?
My guess would be no, due to CG and weight considerations.

References:
Curtiss Aircraft 1907-47 by Peter M. Bowers. Putnam, 1979.
U.S.Military Aircraft since1909 by Gordon Sean borough and Peter M. Bowers, third edition, Putnam 1989.

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

Then what were the two seat dual control aircraft called?

Shouldn't they all be TP's or RP's or both as in #5?

And what about my original Rocket Stub question?

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Per Bowers as referenced above, some were called TP-40s unofficially.
If you look at P-40 serial number records in various books, there is no sign of TP-40s as a official sub-type.

Remember the T prefix (ahead of the primary mission symbol) was not widely used in the war. Although, the 10 two seat mustang built in 1944 were apparently called TP-51s.
A better known example of the service not using "T" s, training B-25 which were designated AT-24s.

In my father's flying records, training unit B-17s were B-17s, not TB-17s. (Interestingly, he also trained in YB-40s, not TB-40s at Yuma). But even that would not be conclusive, as those were records were likely filled out by clerks, not tech guys using official Tech Order data.
To add to the confusion, from Sept.'45 to March '46 his records show flying TB-25Js and TC-47Ds. After March the "T" prefix is dropped. Surely, the base didn't suddenly change aircraft. Just the paperwork designation changed.
So a P-40 headed to the scrapyards could have easily been identified as RPs, with no official papers to back it up.


Few two sweaters were built. Since the P-40 was a second line aircraft by then, and so few were produced and fielded, it may not of had an official designation. Bowers had access to Curtiss records for his book research. Curtiss never used a "T" designation..just the block number change.

Remember, even the official designation system had errors and was occasionally contradictory.
Lots of exceptions to the rules. (Using later examples, why were the TF-102s, but F-106Bs, F-100Fs and F-105Fs?).


Neither of the two books I consulted mentioned rocket racks.
There was a lot of discussion about armament changes, but nothing about rockets.
So added by the AAF at mod centers or by field units.
Sorry

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

They may well have been referred to as "TP-40" as well; the use of this term on a record card is not exclusive to one subtype or mod standard. A good example of this are the training role P-80s (single-seat) which are sometimes recorded as "TP-80" whilst for a short while two-seat P-80s (T-33s in other words) are concurrently referred to as TP-80Cs.

Record cards in my experience do not annotate block numbers, so (as a fictional example) a two-seat TP-40C-21 would be annotated "TP-40C" exactly the same as a single-seat TP-40C-31 (both examples for illustration only) would be a "TP-40C", though it's doubtful that locally-modified aircraft gained a new block number. To use a '50s example, I see references sometimes to an aircraft being a "JF-100C" and then described as if it were a uniquely-configured subtype. This is not correct, the 'J' designator indicating a type exempt from routine T.O. and used in a test role. So one JF-100C might look totally different from the next JF-100C.

It's also worth noting that the 'T' prefix at this time seems more to refer to an aircraft's role than its modification state. I'm reluctant to rely too much on accounting errors on record cards: errors are apparent at times but always appears to have been subsequently corrected by a later card entry. Bear in mind that these cards were important documents for accounting and allotting aircraft so errors are unlikely and would have been discouraged.

Thus I think the "TP-40" designation is entirely correct to indicate single-seat P-40s used in the training role. I also expect that there may have been aircraft conversion/s associated with this re-designation (rocket stubs on P-40s possibly for example), but likely not mandatory for a type change.

22nd Photo Recon Squadron, descended from the 22nd Aero Squadron in WW1. If you believe Wikipedia the squadron was training in and around Alabama both before and after deployment to Europe.

This agrees with the assignment to Stuttgart AAF/74th RGp etc...