Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:00 am
Cool Video!! Quick Question, How do the pilots of B-52s air to air refuel when the connection is behind them? Do they have a spotter (co pilot, flt engineer etc?) ? Just curious because it would seem to be awful hard...
Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:35 am
me109me109 wrote:Cool Video!! Quick Question, How do the pilots of B-52s air to air refuel when the connection is behind them? Do they have a spotter (co pilot, flt engineer etc?) ? Just curious because it would seem to be awful hard...
Line up with a fixed spot under the tanker, and the boomer takes it from there.
Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:56 am
Hi Guys,
Slick video.....thanks for posting it.
Paul
Slick video.....thanks for posting it.
Paul
Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:19 am
skymstr02 wrote:me109me109 wrote:Cool Video!! Quick Question, How do the pilots of B-52s air to air refuel when the connection is behind them? Do they have a spotter (co pilot, flt engineer etc?) ? Just curious because it would seem to be awful hard...
Line up with a fixed spot under the tanker, and the boomer takes it from there.
They have two sets of lights under the belly of the tanker, up and down and forward and back.
The boomer, pretty much "talks" the pilot in and the boomer, flys the boom down to the aircraft.
Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:47 am
The boomer only talks when the airplane is approaching the normal limits of the boom. Otherwise, staying in the right position is a combination of the director lights and just flying formation.
There are also paint marks on the boom itself that show how extended or retracted it is. The place where you want to be is a green circle on a field of yellow called "the apple".
I don't see taking gas as any more difficult than simply flying formation -- something all USAF pilots learn in their first 75 hours as a student.
I set myself up 1 mile behind the tanker with about 50 knots of closure (he's at 310 KCAS). I line myself up laterally under the right wing root (if a KC-135) or under the right director light (if a KC-10). Vertically, I put the "knuckle" (which is the tip of the refuelling boom) on the horizon. Then I just drive it in.
In the F-15E the refuelling recepticle is also behind the cockpit, so as soon as the boom passes out of my peripheral vision, I pull some power to arrest my closure rate and transfer to looking at the director lights (which at this time should have the red light next to the "F", meaning 'forward', illuminated). From there I ease forward until I feel the boomer plug me and the green light mounted on the canopy bow goes out, indicating a good connection.
I assess what the formation position looks like at that point, and then just try to maintain that position. I reference the director lights, and I also have my left mirror pointed so that I can see "the apple". It's really not that big of a deal.
At night (in combat, at least, when all the lights on the tanker are off), the stakes go up considerably, since you can no longer see the whole airplane. Your ONLY cues are the director lights, and no other part of the airplane is visible to fly formation off. Consequently it's much more difficult to maintain a good position without the subtle line-of-sight cues that are used in normal formation flying.
There are also paint marks on the boom itself that show how extended or retracted it is. The place where you want to be is a green circle on a field of yellow called "the apple".
I don't see taking gas as any more difficult than simply flying formation -- something all USAF pilots learn in their first 75 hours as a student.
I set myself up 1 mile behind the tanker with about 50 knots of closure (he's at 310 KCAS). I line myself up laterally under the right wing root (if a KC-135) or under the right director light (if a KC-10). Vertically, I put the "knuckle" (which is the tip of the refuelling boom) on the horizon. Then I just drive it in.
In the F-15E the refuelling recepticle is also behind the cockpit, so as soon as the boom passes out of my peripheral vision, I pull some power to arrest my closure rate and transfer to looking at the director lights (which at this time should have the red light next to the "F", meaning 'forward', illuminated). From there I ease forward until I feel the boomer plug me and the green light mounted on the canopy bow goes out, indicating a good connection.
I assess what the formation position looks like at that point, and then just try to maintain that position. I reference the director lights, and I also have my left mirror pointed so that I can see "the apple". It's really not that big of a deal.
At night (in combat, at least, when all the lights on the tanker are off), the stakes go up considerably, since you can no longer see the whole airplane. Your ONLY cues are the director lights, and no other part of the airplane is visible to fly formation off. Consequently it's much more difficult to maintain a good position without the subtle line-of-sight cues that are used in normal formation flying.
Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:35 am
Tanks Randy, I knew you would pipe in sometime!
Paul
Paul
Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:27 am
I stopped being late for things after my first KC-135 ride. We were in a racetrack pattern over Winslow, AZ. Our F-15's, out of Luke, showed up at exactly the agreed upon time, to within, as I recall, three seconds, at exactly the appointed spot in the racetrack pattern. The mission was planned something like six months before. I was impressed. Being home on time for dinner stopped being such a big deal.
Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:44 am
randy
as i recall for the F15 it's 315 for normal A/R and 335 for the breakaway or over-run..
any luck on the flag????
take care
jcw
as i recall for the F15 it's 315 for normal A/R and 335 for the breakaway or over-run..
any luck on the flag????
take care
jcw
Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:54 pm
AR Speeds & Overrun speeds from the charts (all speeds KCAS)
Boom Recievers
A-10 220 250
B-1B 320 355
B-2 255 300
B-52 275 310
C-5 255 310
C-17 265 310
C-130 200 200
C-135/E-3/E6 275 310
C-141B 280 310
E-4 275 310
F-4 315 335
F-15 315 335
F-16 315 335
F-111 320 335
F-117 310 335
KC-10 295 335
Drogue Receivers
Tornado 275 310
EA-6 275 310
F-18 285 335
S-3 235 310
Boom Recievers
A-10 220 250
B-1B 320 355
B-2 255 300
B-52 275 310
C-5 255 310
C-17 265 310
C-130 200 200
C-135/E-3/E6 275 310
C-141B 280 310
E-4 275 310
F-4 315 335
F-15 315 335
F-16 315 335
F-111 320 335
F-117 310 335
KC-10 295 335
Drogue Receivers
Tornado 275 310
EA-6 275 310
F-18 285 335
S-3 235 310
Last edited by CAPFlyer on Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:25 am
JCW -
Yes, I all ready have a flag for you that I've been flying with me. My plan was to fly it on 9/11/07 and have the certificate have that day on it.
Yes, I all ready have a flag for you that I've been flying with me. My plan was to fly it on 9/11/07 and have the certificate have that day on it.
Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:25 pm
CAPFlyer wrote:AR Speeds & Overrun speeds from the charts (all speeds KCAS)
Boom Recievers
A-10 220 250
B-1B 320 355
B-2 255 300
B-52 275 310
C-5 255 310
C-17 265 310
C-130 200 200
C-135/E-3/E6 275 310
C-141B 280 310
E-4 275 310
F-4 315 335
F-15 315 335
F-16 315 335
F-111 320 335
F-117 310 335
KC-10 295 335
Drogue Receivers
Tornado 275 310
EA-6 275 310
F-18 285 335
S-3 235 310
What about RC-135 or EC-135 Aircraft? Anything listed on those? They are a KC-135 Platform, but much heavier because of the electronics on board? Reason on ask is that you have the E-4B listed.
Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:10 pm
E-4B is a 747-200. The C-135 speed is for all C-135 platforms (note it is also for the much heavier E-3 and E-6A too). These speeds are for the beginning of refueling only and once contact is made, the two aircraft can (and often do) accelerate to keep the receiver above it's stall speed as its weight increases. Veteran crews can do it without any communication if needed, but last I heard, there is usually communication between the two planes either via the boom intercom or the tanker's air-to-air frequency to ensure both aircraft know what the other is doing.
BTW, I had a funny story from a guy who used to be a B-52 instructor pilot. He said that when he was doing refueling training the students would make dry contacts on legs and he would make wet contacts during the turns to keep them fueled up. He got very good at doing contacts in the turns, but before every periodic checkride he would have to do some contacts in level flight because he found that he got so used to making contact in the turns that he couldn't hook in level flight. Great to show off for the new guys, but sobering when you find out that you can't hook in straight-and-level flight.
BTW, I had a funny story from a guy who used to be a B-52 instructor pilot. He said that when he was doing refueling training the students would make dry contacts on legs and he would make wet contacts during the turns to keep them fueled up. He got very good at doing contacts in the turns, but before every periodic checkride he would have to do some contacts in level flight because he found that he got so used to making contact in the turns that he couldn't hook in level flight. Great to show off for the new guys, but sobering when you find out that you can't hook in straight-and-level flight.