Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:52 pm
In response to requests for more details and photos of Bruce Carr's supposed stolen FW-190, here is the real story. AFTER VE-Day the 354th FG was on occupation duty and everyone was bored.
Many of the group's personnel began appropiating captured
Luftwaffe equiptment including car, cycles and of course for the pilots a/c for their own enjoyment. Maj. Jim Dalglish CO of the 353rd FG had his own FW-190. Bruce Carr decided to get one for himself
and hitchhiked to a German airfield near Linz, Austria where he found a flyable FW-109. Has prearranged, a flight of
353rd FS P-51Ds arrived overhead to escort Carr and his prize back to the 354th FG's homebase at Ansbach. Unfortunately Carr couldn't get the gear down and slide the FW in on it's belly.
After this inclident the practice of flying German aircraft was banned. Sorry no shotdown, evasion or stolen FW just one a post war adventure that turn into a whopper of a story.
Bruce Carr coming in flaps down & the gear up.
Carr's FW-190 after his short lived joyride.
Many of the group's personnel began appropiating captured
Luftwaffe equiptment including car, cycles and of course for the pilots a/c for their own enjoyment. Maj. Jim Dalglish CO of the 353rd FG had his own FW-190. Bruce Carr decided to get one for himself
and hitchhiked to a German airfield near Linz, Austria where he found a flyable FW-109. Has prearranged, a flight of
353rd FS P-51Ds arrived overhead to escort Carr and his prize back to the 354th FG's homebase at Ansbach. Unfortunately Carr couldn't get the gear down and slide the FW in on it's belly.
After this inclident the practice of flying German aircraft was banned. Sorry no shotdown, evasion or stolen FW just one a post war adventure that turn into a whopper of a story.
Bruce Carr coming in flaps down & the gear up.
Carr's FW-190 after his short lived joyride.
Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:31 am
As usual, fabulous photos Jack!
Who, what, where, when, how and why did you here the "real" story?
If true, this is a perfect example of revisionist history of which we as the reader if not careful, will succumbe to ourselves!
Perhaps we should have a ongoing thread "The real story" and have historians such as yourselves respond with corroborating evidence.
Thx again for the photos!
Regards,
t~
Who, what, where, when, how and why did you here the "real" story?
If true, this is a perfect example of revisionist history of which we as the reader if not careful, will succumbe to ourselves!
Perhaps we should have a ongoing thread "The real story" and have historians such as yourselves respond with corroborating evidence.
Thx again for the photos!
Regards,
t~
Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:02 am
Calling the experten - without consulting my refs, is this an A-6 with a blown canopy? I'd love to do a small painting of Carr flying this plane.
Excellent pics - added to the one from the right side posted a few days ago in the "Pilot Rescue" thread. Any more pics? Any profile artists tackled this one? I'm sure there's an interesting mix of late war colors on this one ...
Wade
Excellent pics - added to the one from the right side posted a few days ago in the "Pilot Rescue" thread. Any more pics? Any profile artists tackled this one? I'm sure there's an interesting mix of late war colors on this one ...
Wade
Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:12 pm
Here's some great info via David E. Brown over on Hyperscale:
"A very good article about this aircraft was published by Steve Blake and Steve Sheflin in Sheflin’s “Airfoil” magazine that included photos from his and Jim Crow’s collections, two of which are in colour (“The Case of the ‘Stolen’ Fw 190!”, Airfoil, Vol.1, No.2, Spring 1984, pp.30-31.)
Red 31 + ~ is certainly an A-6 that was given a new power-egg, canopy and A-8 wings to create this recycled hybrid. The designation stays with the fuselage and so it would be nice to get confirmation via a good view of the tail and get a Werknummer.
Camouflage is rather mixed given its hybrid status. The wings appear to be in the standard 74/75 greys as is the fuselage back to the tail unit. The tail is certainly a replacement was a base coat of a lightened version of 76 with a mottle of 83 dark green. These tails are seen on a number of Fw 190 F-8s that were themselves recycled aircraft from older and/or damaged types. The power egg and forward gun panel appear to be overall 83 as seen in the colour shots. There might be a bit of 83 applied here and there in an attempt to unify the overall scheme.
The aircraft invariably came from I./EKG(J) - Ergängzungkampfgeschwader (Jagd) / reserve or replacement training bomber wing (fighter) and was originally stationed at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. From there, it was invariably flown to the west ahead of the Russian advance, being abandoned at Linz, Austria where Carr found it.
The use of such a hybrid kite makes perfect sense for the unit and period of the war. I had pegged that Red 31 was an EKG(J) aircraft about ten years ago while studying an Fw 190 D-9 with a similar code and markings (“Red 18 + ~”, WNr.211115 found at Pilsen in May 1945). Indeed, the fact that there were many aircraft types associated with the unit was an immediate tip-off that this was a rag-tag unit that grabbed whatever aircraft they could and got them into operational status."
David E. Brown
-----------------------------
And, here's a bit of "semi-official" Urban Legend:
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0295valor.asp
Wade
"A very good article about this aircraft was published by Steve Blake and Steve Sheflin in Sheflin’s “Airfoil” magazine that included photos from his and Jim Crow’s collections, two of which are in colour (“The Case of the ‘Stolen’ Fw 190!”, Airfoil, Vol.1, No.2, Spring 1984, pp.30-31.)
Red 31 + ~ is certainly an A-6 that was given a new power-egg, canopy and A-8 wings to create this recycled hybrid. The designation stays with the fuselage and so it would be nice to get confirmation via a good view of the tail and get a Werknummer.
Camouflage is rather mixed given its hybrid status. The wings appear to be in the standard 74/75 greys as is the fuselage back to the tail unit. The tail is certainly a replacement was a base coat of a lightened version of 76 with a mottle of 83 dark green. These tails are seen on a number of Fw 190 F-8s that were themselves recycled aircraft from older and/or damaged types. The power egg and forward gun panel appear to be overall 83 as seen in the colour shots. There might be a bit of 83 applied here and there in an attempt to unify the overall scheme.
The aircraft invariably came from I./EKG(J) - Ergängzungkampfgeschwader (Jagd) / reserve or replacement training bomber wing (fighter) and was originally stationed at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. From there, it was invariably flown to the west ahead of the Russian advance, being abandoned at Linz, Austria where Carr found it.
The use of such a hybrid kite makes perfect sense for the unit and period of the war. I had pegged that Red 31 was an EKG(J) aircraft about ten years ago while studying an Fw 190 D-9 with a similar code and markings (“Red 18 + ~”, WNr.211115 found at Pilsen in May 1945). Indeed, the fact that there were many aircraft types associated with the unit was an immediate tip-off that this was a rag-tag unit that grabbed whatever aircraft they could and got them into operational status."
David E. Brown
-----------------------------
And, here's a bit of "semi-official" Urban Legend:
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0295valor.asp
Wade
Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:49 am
I've got the ish of 'Airfoil' in question. My scanner's on the blink but I'll be heading to my Sis' place on monday
and should be able to get it scanned there.
Fade to Black...
and should be able to get it scanned there.
Fade to Black...
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:22 am
I had the pleasure of meeting COL Carr when he and COL Bud Anderson hosted a Meet and Greet for my unit at Mac Dill AFB in 1996.He relayed the story in question in great detail during the presentation they gave to us. COL Anderson who was in theatre at the time recounted getting a briefing on the incident while he was the XO of his Squadron.This event is well documented and after hearing it from both COL Anderson and COL Carr I consider it historical fact.
So basically both men who I consider beyond reproach are being called liars... Of course there are people that think we never landed on the moon and GWB took the towers down LOL. It takes all kinds I guess. COL Carr passed away in 1998.
So basically both men who I consider beyond reproach are being called liars... Of course there are people that think we never landed on the moon and GWB took the towers down LOL. It takes all kinds I guess. COL Carr passed away in 1998.
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:56 am
Sorry but the whole story is HS or just plain ol' hogwash!
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:15 pm
And I,m supposed to believe you over them because of what again ??And your credentials are what ??
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:21 pm
Ask Kelly Gross, ask Cary Salter, ask Ken Dahlberg, ask anyone who was there!
Ask Steve Steve Blake or better yet buy his 354th FG history which details this little
episode from start to finish with statement s from the folks who were there. Ever
ask why there were so many photos of the event?? Because it was planned. Carr
hitchhiked to Linz picked a Fw with fuel waited until his Mustang escort showed up
then took off and flew back with them has escort but oops he couldn't get the gear down.
Ask Steve Steve Blake or better yet buy his 354th FG history which details this little
episode from start to finish with statement s from the folks who were there. Ever
ask why there were so many photos of the event?? Because it was planned. Carr
hitchhiked to Linz picked a Fw with fuel waited until his Mustang escort showed up
then took off and flew back with them has escort but oops he couldn't get the gear down.
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:25 pm
.
Last edited by Hunter1 on Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:34 pm
sorry but this is one story that got away from him and morphed into something he probably never intended.
The true facts are of no mystery to the 354th FG personnel who were there and never have been. Does
that mean Bruce Carr's was a bad guy? Of course not!! He was a truly gifted pilot and spent his AF career
defending his country.
I would challenge you to do some research and tell me what date he was shot down, show me his MACR and his
escape and evasion report or at least one 35th FG member who will say it wasn't a planned event.
a quote from Jim Edwards 354th FG ace
"That stories so full of holes you could fly a 51 throught it!
a quote from 354th Fg historian Steve Blake
The popular version of that story has been well debunked by now. I don't know who originated it, but as Bruce Carr was quite a "character" he may well have had something to do with it himself. I am attaching a page from my manuscript that provides the true "gen." I have several other great stories about 354th FG pilots "requisitioning" some Germany planes (especially fighters) shortly after VE Day, until their higher-ups called a halt to the practice - especially, no doubt, after Carr's crash.
The true facts are of no mystery to the 354th FG personnel who were there and never have been. Does
that mean Bruce Carr's was a bad guy? Of course not!! He was a truly gifted pilot and spent his AF career
defending his country.
I would challenge you to do some research and tell me what date he was shot down, show me his MACR and his
escape and evasion report or at least one 35th FG member who will say it wasn't a planned event.
a quote from Jim Edwards 354th FG ace
"That stories so full of holes you could fly a 51 throught it!
a quote from 354th Fg historian Steve Blake
The popular version of that story has been well debunked by now. I don't know who originated it, but as Bruce Carr was quite a "character" he may well have had something to do with it himself. I am attaching a page from my manuscript that provides the true "gen." I have several other great stories about 354th FG pilots "requisitioning" some Germany planes (especially fighters) shortly after VE Day, until their higher-ups called a halt to the practice - especially, no doubt, after Carr's crash.
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:43 pm
one more quote from historian Steve Sheflin
It’s baaack!!!!
The story of Bruce Carr “stealing” an Fw 190 and escaping from behind enemy lines is patently untrue. In AIRFOIL #2 (see the posting above), Steve Blake and I published a short article debunking this apocryphal story. As part of his research, Steve Blake spoke to Col. Felix Kozaczka, one of Carr’s wingmen, who was present during the flight and belly landing. Kozaczka told him in no uncertain terms that the more lurid aspects of this story never occurred.
Like many pilots after the war, Carr wanted to fly a German plane. Carr hitchhiked to Linz, Austria, where he chose the now-well-known Fw 190 A-6/A-8 hybrid, “31+ ~ Red” for his mount. After flying back to Ansbach with an escort of 354th FG P-51s, Carr couldn’t get the 190’s gear down and was forced to belly land it on the grass at Ansbach.
Post-crash photos of Carr show him walking around unhurt and wearing a neat, clean uniform—hardly the look of someone who had just evaded capture and flown a stolen Focke-Wulf to freedom.
I can’t believe that this story won’t just die and go away. Heroes like Bruce Carr don’t deserve to be tarred with lurid tales like this. Their real-life experiences should be more than enough for anyone.
Steve Sheflin
It’s baaack!!!!
The story of Bruce Carr “stealing” an Fw 190 and escaping from behind enemy lines is patently untrue. In AIRFOIL #2 (see the posting above), Steve Blake and I published a short article debunking this apocryphal story. As part of his research, Steve Blake spoke to Col. Felix Kozaczka, one of Carr’s wingmen, who was present during the flight and belly landing. Kozaczka told him in no uncertain terms that the more lurid aspects of this story never occurred.
Like many pilots after the war, Carr wanted to fly a German plane. Carr hitchhiked to Linz, Austria, where he chose the now-well-known Fw 190 A-6/A-8 hybrid, “31+ ~ Red” for his mount. After flying back to Ansbach with an escort of 354th FG P-51s, Carr couldn’t get the 190’s gear down and was forced to belly land it on the grass at Ansbach.
Post-crash photos of Carr show him walking around unhurt and wearing a neat, clean uniform—hardly the look of someone who had just evaded capture and flown a stolen Focke-Wulf to freedom.
I can’t believe that this story won’t just die and go away. Heroes like Bruce Carr don’t deserve to be tarred with lurid tales like this. Their real-life experiences should be more than enough for anyone.
Steve Sheflin
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:48 pm
oh and one last tidbit.
Fighter Ace Association Frank Olynyk has Carr's form 5 and one the page for May 1945
the flight is listed for May 8th. The 354th FG flew it's last combat mission of WWII BEFORE Carr flew the FW-190.
Also the airfield in Linz where Carr took off from was occupied by British troops.........
and a good quote from Mark Twain
"Falsehood goes 'round the world three times before truth gets its pants on"
Fighter Ace Association Frank Olynyk has Carr's form 5 and one the page for May 1945
the flight is listed for May 8th. The 354th FG flew it's last combat mission of WWII BEFORE Carr flew the FW-190.
Also the airfield in Linz where Carr took off from was occupied by British troops.........
and a good quote from Mark Twain
"Falsehood goes 'round the world three times before truth gets its pants on"
Last edited by Jack Cook on Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:29 pm
I thought I read somewhere that some FW-190's had wooden props. This one clearly had metal blades.
Re: Bruce Carr & the FW-190
Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:34 pm
Broad chord wooden props were introduced with the A-8 (VDM 9-12176 A blades), but they weren't universal. In fact the Kraftei (power egg) engine installation means that engines and props were often shuffled around during the course of an aircraft's life.