WWI Fokker to be returned to the Netherlands

[JohnB]

I hadn't heard of this...

During WWII, Herman Goring had visions of a German aeronautical museum to celebrate their achievements and combat heritage. Accordingly, a Fokker D.VII, was taken from the occupied Netherlands.
After the war it was found by the art hunters "aka The Monuments Men" in a barn where it eventually ended up in a German museum.

Now with its history known, it is being returned to the Netherlands...
https://www.flyingmag.com/dutch-fokker- ... CAMPAIGNID%&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_content=text&utm_campaign=FLY-NL-Daily&oly_enc_id=7798A0362067C7R

[Archer]

It will be at the National Military Museum in The Netherlands for a period of five years. It will be good to see it there.

Actually, they stole a lot more aircraft, not just this D.VII. The sad thing is that this is the only one left as the museum where a lot of them were on display during WWII was bombed.
Edit: The two photos below are of a miniature at the Berlin Technik Museum, showing an overview of the original display that was called the Deutsche Luftfahrtsammlung Berlin. The German Wikipedia page (click the link in the previous sentence) has a list of objects that were held in this collection. Other remaining aircraft from this collection are in the Polish Aviation Museum in Krakow.

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[JohnB]

Yes, that collection is infamous for being where the Dornier DO-X was destroyed, as well as a lot of other aviation artifacts.

[Archer]

Indeed, and for the life of me I couldn't remember the name yesterday, only that I had seen that model in Berlin!

Apart from that D.VII, there was a Fokker D.XXI and a Dutch Douglas DB-8A in that collection as well as a Fokker Spin (Spider). It would be good for them to turn up in a barn somewhere but I'm not holding my breath.....

[old iron]

as well as a Fokker Spin (Spider)

The Fokker Spin was among the survivors preserved in Poland and has been subsequently transferred to the Aviodrome in the Nederlands.

[Archer]

Thanks for that. I did not know that. The Aviodrome has two examples of the Spin, one is an original one and one is a 1936 reproduction one. I checked Wikipedia and it turns out that the original, late-built, one is the one that was in Berlin during WWII. One of those two (I think it was the 1936 one) was restored so that it could be flown back in the early 90s. It only made a one or two very short flights over a couple of days so that it could be filmed for a documentary.

[Coert Munk]

The one at the picture is the 1936 replica, flown from Eindhoven Airport (NL)

Last edited by Coert Munk on Fri Mar 21, 2025 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Coert Munk]

[quote="Archer"]Thanks for that. I did not know that. The Aviodrome has two examples of the Spin, one is an original one and one is a 1936 reproduction one. I checked Wikipedia and it turns out that the original, late-built, one is the one that was in Berlin during WWII. One of those two (I think it was the 1936 one) was restored so that it could be flown back in the early 90s. It only made a one or two very short flights over a couple of days so that it could be filmed for a documentary.


The one at the picture is the 1936 replica, flown from Eindhoven Airport (NL)

[Coert Munk]

Hi Archer,
There's no "formal" proof that the D.VII was stolen by Hermann Göring, other assumptions are that it might have been a gift to him...
I'm involved in the research of the Deutsches Museum and the NMM Soesterberg for the last two years, a very interesting project! Several publications on this 'journey' are planned.
To be ctd.... !

[Archer]

Dank Coert!

Looking forward to those publications. The typical narrative is to say that those airframes were stolen, but I guess that applies more to the WWII types. I can see that a D.VII could have ended up in Germany as a gift as well. I need to dig up my photos from Munich now...

[JimH]

What's left of the Goering collection is in the Aviation Museum in Krakow. 10 years ago we did a trip to this museum, as well as several others, including the Berlin Technik Museum. The Curator at the Berlin Museum was trying to negotiate the return of the collection, or even just a few airframes. The Polish were flatley refusing to entertain their return. When we visited the collection was in a non climate controlled building and really neglected. Sad.

Jim

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[DaveM2]

Jim

Fortunately the museum has had a large makeover in the interim and is in much better shape than previously. Not sure about climate control though.

[old iron]

Coert wrote:

There's no "formal" proof that the D.VII was stolen by Hermann Göring, other assumptions are that it might have been a gift to him...
I'm involved in the research of the Deutsches Museum and the NMM Soesterberg for the last two years, a very interesting project! Several publications on this 'journey' are planned.

Coert, please send me a private message and I would like to get in touch with you as I also have a longterm interest in the Berlin collection in Poland.

I have visited the Polish Aviation Museum (PAM) in Krakow twice. The unrestored Berlin aircraft are in unheated storage, but the remains are well cared for. Such storage is common to aviation museums, such as the Garber Facility at NASM, and portions of the NMUSAF collection. I do not think they should be criticized for this, as these museums have preserved rare aircraft that otherwise would not exist.

Information on the Berlin Museum history, and the Krakow survivors, is scarce. There is a good book by Hundertmark and Steinle (Phoenix aus der Aschne...), though unfortunately for me is in German. The surviving aircraft, especially those from the WWI era (including an Antoinette), are fuselage-only, apparently the wings were in another row of boxcars that went somewhere else and was destroyed. Lost were many extreme rarities, including two Lilienthals, two early Grades (sort of Deperdussin equivalents), other first-generation early aircraft, a Fokker Dr.1 (with a Richtofen heritage?), several early Taubes, and a long list of others. The Berlin Air Museum was arguably the best in the world in circa 1940, and this museum if it survived would have been the equivalent of the modern NASM and Museum of Air and Space in Paris.

I can see how the Fokker D.VII might have been gifted to Berlin, but the Fokker Spin was very likely stolen from the Dutch. Recognizing this, the PAM returned this to the Dutch; the DH.9A (missing wings) was traded to the Brits for a Spitfire. The Poles (I think) have restored the Curtiss Hawk, which was also missing wings.

There was a deal at one time where the Berlin Technique Museum (BTM) restored the Jeannin Stahltraube and Albatros B.II. The Germans say that the Albatros was restored in exchange for the Jeannin being gifted to the BTM, while I think the Poles consider the Jeannine to be a loan. With that disagreement, further negotiations appear to have broken down.

I can see how the Fokker D.VII might have been gifted to Berlin, but the Fokker Spinne was very likely stolen from the Dutch. Recognizing this, the PAM returned this to the Dutch; the DH.9A was traded to the Brits for a Spitfire. The Poles (I think) have restored the Curtiss Hawk, which was also missing wings.

I have many questions, which maybe Coert or others can answer.

I have long wondered if the now-restored Sopwith Camel and Grigorovitsh M.15 (Russian WWI era seaplane) survived with their original wings, or were these also fuselage-only. I would love to hear exactly what was left from each of the circa 20 survivors. Most of the German WWI era aircraft have complete fuselage, retaining landing gear and engines (only wings missing), others have a mixed bag of pieces. One of the surviving aircraft is a Horten Ho.II, consisting only of a wing section, though this might have been incorporated into the Ho.II restoration of an example donated by NASM. The Heinkel He.5 seaplane has a fuselage with engine, probably missing the tail unit, and one of the two floats. The Me.209 world speed record holder is missing the firewall forward, which constitutes much of the fuselage length.

There seems to be some animosity between the German and Polish players in all this, the Germany claiming that most of the surviving aircraft belong to Germany, while the Polish must remind everyone how much Polish heritage was destroyed by the Nazis. I think this is a case of "possession is 9/10s of the law" and it was the Poles (not the Germans) who preserved this collection.

It would be nice if the BTM would offer to restore all the aircraft in exchange for two or three of the survivors (I would think including the Me.209), with the rest all going to permanent display and official ownership in Krakow. I seriously doubt that the Poles would agree to Germany doing the restorations with the PAM retaining only half the current collection. I do believe that the Poles will eventually restore these aircraft on their own in due time; they have done this for Udet's Curtiss Hawk.

I have spent more than a year in Poland doing my scientific research and know that the country has many highly talented craftsmen capable of doing first-rate restorations, once someone provides the money.

[Noha307]

A couple of articles for those interested in the subject of requested repatriations of this collection:

• Niemcy chcą odzyskać kolekcję Göringa z Muzeum Lotnictwa Polskiego w Krakowie
• Deutschland-Polen: Streit um eine Luftfahrt-Sammlung

Coert, please send me a private message and I would like to get in touch with you as I also have a longterm interest in the Berlin collection in Poland.

Count me as a third on that one. Even just nailing down the specifics of how it got there and what exactly they have is difficult, so I would be interested in some answers as well.

[Coert Munk]

Kevin,
Pls leave me a pm, a pm to you gives an error...
Kind regards, Coert