Any Current BF-109's with proven Combat History

[Ed Likes]

I was watching some video's on my RoKU of Hangar 10. I got to wondering if there are any BF-109's that are flyers with proven combat history? I know there are some P-51's and a handful of others that are flyers with proven combat history. But what of German Aircraft? I love a Merlin under power, but that Damler Benz under power has a mean growl. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Tulio]

I don't know if any of the Hispano Buchon, that were modified to Daimler Benz power, have a combat history.

Many of them fought in Spain's colonial wars, although I doubt their enemies had any aircraft, thus no air-to-air combat AFAIK

Saludos,


Tulio

[Firebird]

I got to wondering if there are any BF-109's that are flyers with proven combat history?

Two of them......that are potentially flyers, but are not currently flying.

FHC's Bf109-E3 has combat history, but all FHC's stuff appears to be grounded currently due to the virus impact on the museum.

The ex-Dave Price/ex-Ed Russell Bf109-E7 now at Biggin Hill in the UK was airworthy while in the USA, but has flown since coming back to the UK. That also has a combat history including being flown in combat during in the Battle of Britain by none other than Hans-Joachim Marseille.

As said, I don't think any of the DB engined Buchon conversions currently flying have any combat history?

[Archer]

If you look at the development of the Hispano Aviación Buchon, the first flight of a Hispano engined one doesn't take place until 1945, and the Merlin engined one doesn't turn up until 1954. While 25 airframes were delivered from Germany to Spain, AFAIK no-one has ever been able to connect any German combat history to the Spanish airframes. I think it is pretty safe to state that any Buchon or Buchon conversion that is still around does not have a combat history.

So the only flying Bf/Me109s with combat history are the two E variants as mentioned above.

Always happy to be proven wrong of course...

[JohnTerrell]

I would say that even the two rebuilt/flying Bf-109E's, mentioned in this thread, are not quite the combat-vets they're described to be, as there is so little to nothing of the originals contained within them. They're not too unlike/different than the Hangar 10 Bf-109G-6 either, which didn't start out as a Buchon like all of the other "G's" currently flying, but is essentially an all-new-build, based on a combat-vet wreck/identity. None of these have the amount of originality as say the Bf-109G-2 "Black 6" that flew in England up to 1997. There are a few more Bf-109E's under restoration in Europe, and another very close to flying (WkNr.1983), that also have original, combat-vet identities, but have very little to no original parts of the airframes they're claimed to be. One that should be quite original, however, when it is eventually completed/flying, is the Bf-109E WkNr.4034, under restoration by Guy Black in the UK, which is in fairly good condition, and very complete, and Guy Black has his mind set on using as much original parts of the airframe as possible, and other original Messerschmitt parts where needed, in the restoration, and will be trying to minimize the amount of new material that will need to be used. I know a lot of it couldn't be used, but the Bf-109G-6 nearing completion at Midwest Aero Restorations I believe has been able to retain some original parts, though of course much of the airframe had to be re-manufactured.

That said, the Collings P-40B is always described as being a Pearl Harbor vet, never anything else, even though I've heard it described that there are only 3 parts in the restored aircraft that came from the original it is claimed to be... so who's to say?

[Firebird]

I would say that even the two rebuilt/flying Bf-109E's, mentioned in this thread, are not quite the combat-vets they're described to be, as there is so little to nothing of the originals contained within them. They're not too unlike/different than the Hangar 10 Bf-109G-6 either, which didn't start out as a Buchon like all of the other "G's" currently flying, but is essentially an all-new-build, based on a combat-vet wreck/identity. None of these have the amount of originality as say the Bf-109G-2 "Black 6" that flew in England up to 1997. There are a few more Bf-109E's under restoration in Europe, and another very close to flying (WkNr.1983), that also have original, combat-vet identities, but have very little to no original parts of the airframes they're claimed to be. One that should be quite original, however, when it is eventually completed/flying, is the Bf-109E WkNr.4034, under restoration by Guy Black in the UK, which is in fairly good condition, and very complete, and Guy Black has his mind set on using as much original parts of the airframe as possible, and other original Messerschmitt parts where needed, in the restoration, and will be trying to minimize the amount of new material that will need to be used.

Yeah, the remains of the FHC one were dug from the French beach into which it crashed, so a few corroded bits and the data plates.

The ex-Price/Russell one was quite complete when discovered IIRC, but wasn't the fuselage badly damaged during the rough recovery, or was that another one?

What has become of that complete yellow nose Emil that Jim Pearce found in a fresh water lake and was photographed after recovery pretty much intact and complete sitting on its u/c in a field...?

[quemerford]

I think the only genuine combat veterans will be those firmly ground-bound in museums. The same probably applies to any Spitfire, Hurricane, P-51 or P-40. I can see both sides to the argument but meanwhile we risk destroying the worthy artifacts and populating the world with replicas.

Most folks seem to miss the point and assume that it's 'either/or', but why not place both versions on public display: a, "This is the real thing and this is what it looked like" type of thing.

The archaeological world already does this, and has learned far more about a looted shared heritage.

Not quite on-topic but I needed to express my despair.

[shepsair]

All of the restored original Bf109E's have a proven history.

1342 was a lump found in the sand dunes at Wissant but very little reused. JG51
3579 was a complete airframe recovered from a marsh. JG77/JG5
3235 was another complete example. This is the 'yellow nose' you are referring to. Lake recovery. JG5
1407 was another complete example. 3 identities. Lake recovery. JG77/JG5
1983 was a big lump found of airframe on the tundra. JG77/JG5

4034 BofB. Complete but stripped airframe. Recovered India. JG53

All were recovered after combat/operational loss so have a combat history.

[Joe Scheil]

By the standards that we use determining combat history ANY SURVIVNG Me-109 from the E to the K has combat history. The factories themselves were being bombed from 1943 onward and all of these Surviving planes were assigned to squadrons. Even all Me-262’s I think have this in common....

That said documented history is difficult. We know it was there, just perhaps not exactly where. Restoration and resurrection are two different things however. Black 6 and the displays she flew were one of the few times enthusiasts got to see a real combat Vet 109 in the sky. A relic based reconstruction is a bit different, but there are really no originals about so it’s as close as we get. All of them are veterans of combat deployment I would say. Very few of them were unflown, and then transferred as new. Examples would be the Bv-155, Do335 or something like that. Even the NASM Ta-152 served with a combat unit, Jg-301 I think...

Last edited by Joe Scheil on Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Mike]

If you look at the development of the Hispano Aviación Buchon, the first flight of a Hispano engined one doesn't take place until 1945, and the Merlin engined one doesn't turn up until 1954. While 25 airframes were delivered from Germany to Spain, AFAIK no-one has ever been able to connect any German combat history to the Spanish airframes. I think it is pretty safe to state that any Buchon or Buchon conversion that is still around does not have a combat history.

So the only flying Bf/Me109s with combat history are the two E variants as mentioned above.

Always happy to be proven wrong of course...

Missing the point entirely. Combat history doesn’t stop in 1945. As Tulio mentioned, Buchons served operationally in North Africa with the Spanish Air Force.

[Invader26]

The Bf-109G-6 at the Australian War Memorial is completely original including much of it's paint and is a combat vet.

[Firebird]

The Bf-109G-6 at the Australian War Memorial is completely original including much of it's paint and is a combat vet.

Not airworthy though, which was the criteria set in the OP.

[Firebird]

Black 6 and the displays she flew were one of the few times enthusiasts got to see a real combat Vet 109 in the sky.

Being at Duxford for Black 6's first public display was one of those great never to be forgotten airshow memories, and in fact all of the times I saw it fly over the next 6 or so years was equally special (except for the last time of course but the less said about that the better)

[Joe Scheil]

"Missing the point entirely. Combat history doesn’t stop in 1945. As Tulio mentioned, Buchons served operationally in North Africa with the Spanish Air Force."

I disagree with this point. While they served operationally they were never "in combat" with Spain against another nation in a conflict that I am aware of. Also I think the spirit of the post was taken to be with the Luftwaffe.

As to historic and special variants, the Avia CS-199 is something else entirely with a really rich and important contribution to the state of Israel and the founding of the nation. An excellent book is out on that aircraft and has color photos of the original paint on a component of the sole survivor of her type.

https://www.amazon.com/S-199-Israeli-Fo ... 0977462714

[Dan K]

...As to historic and special variants, the Avia CS-199 is something else entirely with a really rich and important contribution to the state of Israel and the founding of the nation...

Did the Avia CS-199 actually serve with the Israelis?

I've seen some plastic models with 'what if' markings, but can't remember seeing an actual pic of one in IAF service.