Current P-51 B/C with/with out Dorsal Fins ?

[Triplane102]

What's the count with the Current P-51 B/C Flying/Restorations that have/have not the Dorsal Fin ?

[Couger42]

can be found here....

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/su ... ck_Merlins

[JohnTerrell]

As the MustangsMustangs site shows, there are 9 P-51B/C's currently flying. Of those there are three B/C's with dorsal fin fillets. The dorsal fin fillets on the P-51C "Lope's Hope 3rd" and the P-51B "Impatient Virgin" are original/authentic, with all of the original contours. The dorsal fin fillet on the B-model "Old Crow", however, is not fully original/accurate, and doesn't feature the curvature along the spine of the fillet like the originals had (it was once mentioned that when Roush brought the aircraft back to Cal Pacific for them to put a dorsal fin fillet on it, he didn't provide them enough time to be able to recreate the B/C type fillet fully as it originally was, and were only able, within the time allotted, to just produce one with a straight spine). Obviously if you don't know what a true P-51B/C dorsal fin fillet is supposed to look like, you would probably never know that the one on "Old Crow" isn't absolutely correct.

Furthermore, the skins over the rear fuselage/tail cone of the P-51C "Princess Elizabeth" are original to F-6C 43-25147, which originally had the dorsal fin fillet added - so even though "PE" doesn't fly with the fillet, if you look at it up-close you can still see the mounting holes for it.

[dollar65]

Furthermore, the skins over the rear fuselage/tail cone of the P-51C "Princess Elizabeth" are original to F-6C 43-25147, which originally had the dorsal fin fillet added - so even though "PE" doesn't fly with the fillet, if you look at it up-close you can still see the mounting holes for it.

I always thought that the tail cone of "Princess Elizabeth" was coming from 43-6351 N68738, which was scrapped in 1958, and was also fitted with a dorsal fin.

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/su ... al/43-6351

Laurent

[JohnTerrell]

Sorry for the mix-up - yes, you're absolutely correct Laurent. I'm still not quite sure how/where the F-6C 43-25147 identity came about (for which "PE" is registered as), but perhaps it was the identity found with the B/C wing which Pete discovered in Israel and used as the foundation of the project.

(Speaking of N68738 - when it was sitting abandoned at Banning Airport back in the late 50's, it inspired a young John Paul to want to eventually own a P-51B/C, a goal which ultimately led to/culminated in the restored "Boise Bee".)

[CJAM427]

As the MustangsMustangs site shows, there are 9 P-51B/C's currently flying. Of those there are three B/C's with dorsal fin fillets. The dorsal fin fillets on the P-51C "Lope's Hope 3rd" and the P-51B "Impatient Virgin" are original/authentic, with all of the original contours. The dorsal fin fillet on the B-model "Old Crow", however, is not fully original/accurate, and doesn't feature the curvature along the spine of the fillet like the originals had (it was once mentioned that when Roush brought the aircraft back to Cal Pacific for them to put a dorsal fin fillet on it, he didn't provide them enough time to be able to recreate the B/C type fillet fully as it originally was, and were only able, within the time allotted, to just produce one with a straight spine). Obviously if you don't know what a true P-51B/C dorsal fin fillet is supposed to look like, you would probably never know that the one on "Old Crow" isn't absolutely correct.

Furthermore, the skins over the rear fuselage/tail cone of the P-51C "Princess Elizabeth" are original to F-6C 43-25147, which originally had the dorsal fin fillet added - so even though "PE" doesn't fly with the fillet, if you look at it up-close you can still see the mounting holes for it.

It's funny this came up, I was just talking about Old Crow's fillet with a modeling friend.

When was the fillet added and was it for better flying characteristics? If I remember correctly the original 324823 did not have a fillet.

[Triplane102]

Thanks All, I like to see an example of " with & with out ", it gives the public ( IF they catch it ?) a chance to see the evolution of the P-51, Just like some P-63s having/not the lower Fuselage fin. Thanks again !

[Dan Johnson II]

Sorry for the mix-up - yes, you're absolutely correct Laurent. I'm still not quite sure how/where the F-6C 43-25147 identity came about (for which "PE" is registered as), but perhaps it was the identity found with the B/C wing which Pete discovered in Israel and used as the foundation of the project.

(Speaking of N68738 - when it was sitting abandoned at Banning Airport back in the late 50's, it inspired a young John Paul to want to eventually own a P-51B/C, a goal which ultimately led to/culminated in the restored "Boise Bee".)

So how much of 43-25057 actually remain in Boise Bee? Any idea John? Doesn't seem to be much history of the airframe from the images below to present.

Not sure when these were taken but I imagine this is her in some form. Picked these images up off eBay when I spotted the tail number. Apparently William Larkins images

[JohnTerrell]

When was the fillet added and was it for better flying characteristics? If I remember correctly the original 324823 did not have a fillet.

From what I've read/heard through the grapevine, after flying it for a short time Jack Roush felt that the aircraft was too unstable in yaw (a standard characteristic of the P-51B/C without the fillet, at least compared to all of the P-51D's flying today which all have dorsal fin fillets) and requested the fillet to be added to correct this and have the aircraft handle more like the P-51D. This was done back ahead of the 2009 airshow season, after the restoration/build had been completed in 2008. The original 43-24823 didn't have the fillet while it was "Old Crow" or "Berlin Express", but if I recall correctly, that airframe did survive until May 1945 (one of the last B/C's that was still in operation with the 357th by that time), and would certainly have had the dorsal fin fillet (and reverse boost rudder trim tab modification) installed by that time.

The P-51B/C (and early D) dorsal fin fillets were provided by NAA as kits, containing all of the parts for the dorsal fin fillet, dorsal fin beam, replacement horizontal stabilizer-to-fuselage fillets, a replacement link and fitting for the reverse boost rudder tab, and all of the associated hardware required.

[JohnTerrell]

Dan, those are some good questions and I would love to know more myself. Jack Hardwick ended up with at least something that survived of that airframe, as John Paul is said to have acquired the aircraft (or at least parts of, which formed the basis of the identity) in the late 70's - and soon after acquired the A-36 42-83738 in which supposedly all of the parts that were common to the P-51B/C were used in the restoration of 43-25057 (and the remainder sold to the Collings Foundation which resulted in "Baby Carmen"). I've never seen any photos of the project or read any details on how it really progressed between when the original aircraft was parked out in the weeds in Ontario, CA back in '46 (as in the photos you've posted), up until when it emerged as a mostly complete, restored airframe in primer sitting in the Warhawk Air Museum in the early 2000's.

One of the things I've also been curious about, with regard to the "Boise Bee" restoration, is where the early P-51B/C hot air entrance panel and associated cowl former that surrounds it (seen just aft of the port-side exhaust) came from/where it originated. It is really cool that it has that, being as rare as that setup is, and it isn't original to 43-25057, since it was built too late/didn't originally have the carb de-icing hot air panel/ducting.

[CJAM427]

When was the fillet added and was it for better flying characteristics? If I remember correctly the original 324823 did not have a fillet.

From what I've read/heard through the grapevine, after flying it for a short time Jack Roush felt that the aircraft was too unstable in yaw (a standard characteristic of the P-51B/C without the fillet, at least compared to all of the P-51D's flying today which all have dorsal fin fillets) and requested the fillet to be added to correct this and have the aircraft handle more like the P-51D. This was done back ahead of the 2009 airshow season, after the restoration/build had been completed in 2008. The original 43-24823 didn't have the fillet while it was "Old Crow" or "Berlin Express", but if I recall correctly, that airframe did survive until May 1945 (one of the last B/C's that was still in operation with the 357th by that time), and would certainly have had the dorsal fin fillet (and reverse boost rudder trim tab modification) installed by that time.

The P-51B/C (and early D) dorsal fin fillets were provided by NAA as kits, containing all of the parts for the dorsal fin fillet, dorsal fin beam, replacement horizontal stabilizer-to-fuselage fillets, a replacement link and fitting for the reverse boost rudder tab, and all of the associated hardware required.

Ah, very good! John, you're the man!