Looping and rolling big airplanes?

[Stephan Wilkinson]

Tex Johnson made everybody sit up straight when he rolled the Dash 80 above the Gold Cup crowd way back when. Can we assume that pretty much every big two, four, six and eight engined airplane has been looped and rolled at some point in its life, since these are low-G maneuvers? Not talking about airplanes like the 787 or the B-1, which fly under enough control that nobody is going to get a chance to take them off somewhere to play around, but there are enough big airplanes in civil hands that I'm wondering how often they have been aerobatted.

Did anybody ever loop a B-24? Roll a B-52? Loop a Lancaster? Roll a 747?

[Zac Yates]

I'm reading a book called Bomber Crew about RAF Bomber Command and one of the Luftwaffe nightfighter pilots they interviewed mentioned being astounded at a Lancaster looping as a form of evading his fire.

I've also read online recently of a tailgunner's photo shot while the Lanc was inverted, the pilot have done it to prove to one of the crew that it could be done. I'm unsure where I read it unfortunately, possibly Facebook.

Last edited by Zac Yates on Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Stephan Wilkinson]

Interesting! I'm asking this question specifically because I'm writing a Lancaster article for Aviation History magazine, and I've read reports of Lancs being looped and rolled and wondered if they were apocryphal. (I also just ordered "Bomber Crew.")

[Matt Gunsch]

Tex Johnson made everybody sit up straight when he rolled the Dash 80 above the Gold Cup crowd way back when. Can we assume that pretty much every big two, four, six and eight engined airplane has been looped and rolled at some point in its life, since these are low-G maneuvers? Not talking about airplanes like the 787 or the B-1, which fly under enough control that nobody is going to get a chance to take them off somewhere to play around, but there are enough big airplanes in civil hands that I'm wondering how often they have been aerobatted.

Did anybody ever loop a B-24? Roll a B-52? Loop a Lancaster? Roll a 747?

a Loop and a Roll are two vastly different maneuvers. An Aileron roll if done correctly is a 1 -1.5G maneuver, with 1G being what you are feeling everyday, will not stress an airframe.
A loop is a much more G heavy maneuver. In the T-6 on the pull entry to a loop you are averaging 3.5 to 4Gs on the initial pull into the loop and 4 to 4.5Gs on the exit. Most large planes cannot handle G loads that high, let alone having the energy needed to get around a loop.

[Stephan Wilkinson]

Having built and flown an aerobatic aircraft--a Falco--I don't think I've ever experienced anything like 3.5 to 4.5 Gs, Never looped a T6, though...

[JFS61]

Can't see a B-24 withstanding much in the way of any real G's, as the Davis wing wasn't exactly the most robust of structures.

[JohnB]

As mentioned previously, a roll is not a big structural issue. And knowing of Johnson's famous roll in the 367-80, I'd be surprised if no one did in in a B-52 or KC-135.
And don't forget B-47 crews regularly practiced LABS where the aircraft would do an Immelmann.

And a DC-4 was accidentally rolled.

[Malo83]

DC4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrziTee4b2c

[seagull61785]

I believe the RAF crews threw the Vulcans around from time to time, and of course the British test pilot of Concorde is on record for admitting to an aileron (or would that be 'elevon'?) roll or two.

[Sopwith]

In Alex Henshaw's book " Sigh for a Merlin", he states when he was testing new Lancs he used to regularly roll them and have his flight engineer weightless about 2" of the floor most of the way round.

[Cvairwerks]

A KC-130T did what was effectively a snap roll into a three turn tumble in 2006. Read Dan Sanders's account of it in the article "The Wild Ride of 106", September issue of Approach.

[CAPFlyer]

Not talking about airplanes like the 787 or the B-1, which fly under enough control that nobody is going to get a chance to take them off somewhere to play around...

The B-1B is regularly rolled and it has been done multiple times during airshows. These were axial rolls too, not 1G hybrid aileron/barrel rolls like what Tex did with the 367-80. I haven't seen video of it being looped fully, but I see no reason it couldn't as the airframe is rated at +6/-3G(or -2) if I remember correctly.

Also, I remember reading or seeing that the B-47 manual specifically referenced using a barrel roll as part of evasion tactics and I'm sure it was similarly nimble enough to do a loop.

As for the B-52, yeah, that's kinda a sore subject within the BUFF community - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fair ... B-52_crash

While the pilot involved is claimed to have rolled the plane successfully in the past, the use of spoilerons as the primary control method makes it pretty dangerous for such a large aircraft since you are effectively stalling the wing to cause the roll, something you don't want to do in an acrobatic maneuver.

[Aeronut]

Both the Vulcan and Victor were capable of 'over the shoulder' bombing, pulling up from low level into a half loop, releasing the bomb on the way up and rolling off the top.

In the 80's I was at a Battle of Britain air show watching a Vulcan display with a USAF pilot stood alongside me. He was amazed that such a large aircraft could be thrown about like that, I was more surprised at his reaction than I was impressed by the Vulcan having seen it all before.

[Stoney]

There was rumor back in the '70s that some one tried a roll in a DC-8, it was said that it lost 3 engines (fell off in the roll)

[ignomini]

CAPFlyer touched on this point, but I wanted to ask if a plane like the BUFF, with it's control system, would even be capable of doing a roll? Once the aircraft gets to 90 degrees it seems like game over to me.