Bomber Command losses on two raids
Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:11 pm
Anyone with a copy of "Bomber Command Losses" covering September and November 1943 care to help me?
I'm looking for specific loss information during two raids on Modane, France. The target was a large railway marhsalling yard and the Mont Cenis rail tunnel linking France and Italy.
The first raid was on September 16/17 1943 (340 RAF Heavies and 5 B-17's from 422BS 305BG) in which three ships (IIRC two Halifaxes and a Stirling or vice versa) were lost
The second raid was on November 10/11 1943 and was (I think) just carried out by the RAF - I don't know what the losses were in this one.
Apparently General Eisenhower requested (or should that be ordered?) the first raid - does this explain the presence of the 8th AF?
I raised this topic on AAF.com and PlaneTalk (in case you're having a feeling of deja vu) but wondered if any WIXers had some further input. I never realised at the time that B-17s carried out any night raids alongside RAF Bomber Command so this has been an education for me.
Rob / Kansan
I'm looking for specific loss information during two raids on Modane, France. The target was a large railway marhsalling yard and the Mont Cenis rail tunnel linking France and Italy.
The first raid was on September 16/17 1943 (340 RAF Heavies and 5 B-17's from 422BS 305BG) in which three ships (IIRC two Halifaxes and a Stirling or vice versa) were lost
The second raid was on November 10/11 1943 and was (I think) just carried out by the RAF - I don't know what the losses were in this one.
Apparently General Eisenhower requested (or should that be ordered?) the first raid - does this explain the presence of the 8th AF?
I raised this topic on AAF.com and PlaneTalk (in case you're having a feeling of deja vu) but wondered if any WIXers had some further input. I never realised at the time that B-17s carried out any night raids alongside RAF Bomber Command so this has been an education for me.
Rob / Kansan
Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:36 pm
Hi mate, hope that this helps:
16/17 September 1943
340 aircraft of 3, 4, 6 and No 8 Groups - 170 Halifaxes, 127 Stirlings, 43 Lancasters - to attack the important railway yards at Modane on the main railway route from France to Italy. 5 American B-17s also took part. The marking of the target, situated in a steep valley, was not successful and the bombing was not accurate. No report is available from France. 2 Halifaxes and 1 Stirling lost.
12 Lancasters - 8 from 617 Squadron and 4 from 619 Squadron - attempted to bomb the railway viaduct at Anthéor Cannes on the coastal railway line leading to Italy, but no direct hits were scored. 1 Lancaster of 619 Squadron was lost; it came down in the sea off Portugal, possibly while trying to reach Gibraltar.
5 Mosquitos to Berlin, 3 OTU sorties. No losses.
10/11 November 1943
313 Lancasters of 5 and No 8 Groups to attack the railway yards at Modane on the main line between France and Italy. The Pathfinder marking, in difficult conditions, was slightly beyond the target but 200 aircraft brought back photographs to show that their bombs fell within 1 mile of the target and the railway system was seriously damaged.
2 Mosquitos to Dortmund, 7 Stirlings minelaying in the River Gironde and off La Pallice, 20 OTU flights. No aircraft were lost from the 342 sorties flown on this night.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/nov43.html
First night raid by the B-17s (several references to 5, perhaps the same 5 each time?) was 8/9/Sept 43, attack on the Boulogne gun positions.
Cheers
Andy
16/17 September 1943
340 aircraft of 3, 4, 6 and No 8 Groups - 170 Halifaxes, 127 Stirlings, 43 Lancasters - to attack the important railway yards at Modane on the main railway route from France to Italy. 5 American B-17s also took part. The marking of the target, situated in a steep valley, was not successful and the bombing was not accurate. No report is available from France. 2 Halifaxes and 1 Stirling lost.
12 Lancasters - 8 from 617 Squadron and 4 from 619 Squadron - attempted to bomb the railway viaduct at Anthéor Cannes on the coastal railway line leading to Italy, but no direct hits were scored. 1 Lancaster of 619 Squadron was lost; it came down in the sea off Portugal, possibly while trying to reach Gibraltar.
5 Mosquitos to Berlin, 3 OTU sorties. No losses.
10/11 November 1943
313 Lancasters of 5 and No 8 Groups to attack the railway yards at Modane on the main line between France and Italy. The Pathfinder marking, in difficult conditions, was slightly beyond the target but 200 aircraft brought back photographs to show that their bombs fell within 1 mile of the target and the railway system was seriously damaged.
2 Mosquitos to Dortmund, 7 Stirlings minelaying in the River Gironde and off La Pallice, 20 OTU flights. No aircraft were lost from the 342 sorties flown on this night.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/nov43.html
First night raid by the B-17s (several references to 5, perhaps the same 5 each time?) was 8/9/Sept 43, attack on the Boulogne gun positions.
Cheers
Andy
Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:25 am
Thanks Andy,
I'd read some of the text from this site while Googling but I hadn't picked up the fact tha there were no losses on the second raid. I tended to assume that someone was lost every time. There are a few references to the raids in the individual testimonies you find on the Web which are pretty interesting.
Someone posted some information about the 305th BG participation in the first raid on AAf.com (including serial numbers and crew names!) on the 305th sub-forum of AAF.
Clearly I wouldn't expect to trace 340 RAF heavies individually, but what I was kind-of hoping for was for someone who has a copy of "Bomber Command Losses" covering the period September raid to tell me exactly which two Halifaxes and which Stirling were lost on the first raid.
The reason for all this is that I've recently made the acquaintance of someone who was living in Modane (less than a mile south of the Aiming Point) at the time of the raid(s) in 1943. Looking at the (current) pics he sent me it's incredible. The bombers were trying to hit a few railway lines (and a tunnel mouth) at the bottom of a pretty steep valley.
A personal story I saw on the web from someone who was on the raid said that the Stirlings and Halifaxes bombed the French side and the Lancs bombed the Italian side of the tunnel.
regards,
Rob / Kansan
I'd read some of the text from this site while Googling but I hadn't picked up the fact tha there were no losses on the second raid. I tended to assume that someone was lost every time. There are a few references to the raids in the individual testimonies you find on the Web which are pretty interesting.
Someone posted some information about the 305th BG participation in the first raid on AAf.com (including serial numbers and crew names!) on the 305th sub-forum of AAF.
Clearly I wouldn't expect to trace 340 RAF heavies individually, but what I was kind-of hoping for was for someone who has a copy of "Bomber Command Losses" covering the period September raid to tell me exactly which two Halifaxes and which Stirling were lost on the first raid.
The reason for all this is that I've recently made the acquaintance of someone who was living in Modane (less than a mile south of the Aiming Point) at the time of the raid(s) in 1943. Looking at the (current) pics he sent me it's incredible. The bombers were trying to hit a few railway lines (and a tunnel mouth) at the bottom of a pretty steep valley.
A personal story I saw on the web from someone who was on the raid said that the Stirlings and Halifaxes bombed the French side and the Lancs bombed the Italian side of the tunnel.
regards,
Rob / Kansan
Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:01 pm
Losses on the raid of 16/17 Sept 1943:
Halifax II 158 Sqn Lisset JN904
Crashed at St-Georges d'Esperanche France, all crew KIA
Halifax II 419 Sqn Middleton St George LW240
All crew POW/ Evaded
Stirling III 196 Sqn Witchford EF114
Crashed at Heurtevent France, all crew KIA
Halifax II 158 Sqn Lisset JN904
Crashed at St-Georges d'Esperanche France, all crew KIA
Halifax II 419 Sqn Middleton St George LW240
All crew POW/ Evaded
Stirling III 196 Sqn Witchford EF114
Crashed at Heurtevent France, all crew KIA
Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:56 pm
jp wrote:Losses on the raid of 16/17 Sept 1943:
Halifax II 158 Sqn Lisset JN904
Crashed at St-Georges d'Esperanche France, all crew KIA
Halifax II 419 Sqn Middleton St George LW240
All crew POW/ Evaded
Stirling III 196 Sqn Witchford EF114
Crashed at Heurtevent France, all crew KIA
Many thanks jp. That is much appreciated and exactly what I was looking for. May the Bird of Paradise etc etc.
Rob / Kansan
Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:34 pm
Further to jp's information - did a bit of googling and found something slightly interesting.
Looking at Halifax losses for Sept 16 1943 http://bomber-command.info/holBD43.htm - I should have looked here before but never found it.
16/09/43 Modane HR919 JN904 LW240
as well as the 196 Squadron Stirling on a page relating to Stirling losses
HR919 was from 102 Squadron. What's the story here?
R/K
Looking at Halifax losses for Sept 16 1943 http://bomber-command.info/holBD43.htm - I should have looked here before but never found it.
16/09/43 Modane HR919 JN904 LW240
as well as the 196 Squadron Stirling on a page relating to Stirling losses
HR919 was from 102 Squadron. What's the story here?
R/K
Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:36 am
HR919 RAF Pocklington 102 Sqn
Crashed Garrowby Hill Yorkshire. All but one of the crew survived. Presumable a take - off / landing accident
Crashed Garrowby Hill Yorkshire. All but one of the crew survived. Presumable a take - off / landing accident
Bomber Command losses on two raids
Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:50 pm
I appreciate that I've joined this conversation 18 months late, but my father (still going [Aug 2007]...just turned 90) was the pilot of HR919. As we say in the family, he ended up with half his face in the plane and half the plane in his face and, consequently, lifelong membership of the Guinea Pig Club. I have details of what happened if anyone's interested. Post here and I'll contact you.