Fleming Field South St Paul four B-25s circa 1964 Question

[sasmith]

Im hoping someone can shed some light on what ever happened to the four B-25s and what I think is a Privateer that were in a fenced area for quite a while circa 1964. Hangers are now in that area on the east side of the field. My dad used to take me over there to watch airplanes quite a bit. Being a young kid and fascinated with warbirds we went a lot as we just lived across the river. My dad and I went into the fenced area and climbed into one of the B-25s. If I remember correctly they had US AIR FORCE painted on them, they were bare aluminum. There were no turrets on them. Im not sure what models these were, but the turrets had been behind the cockpit and were skinned over. They were in okay condition, but what does a kid know. They were cool!

The mystery that has nagged me all these years was what my dad called a B-24 in the same fenced area as the four B-25s. What I think now was a Privateer. It had been burned. I remember going inside the hulk and there wasnt much left, just puddles of aluminum. I do remember the yokes were in the instrument panels. I do not remember if the engines were still on it. My memory is somewhat cloudy of the whole thing other than it seemed to be such a waste. Dad told me he had heard it was used to train fire fighters.

Does anyone know what happened to these airplanes and what the real story is why the Privateer was burned? I do have some picts dad took that day that may show tail numbers. Ill have to look for them. What I do have are a couple of aerial photos of Fleming Field that show the bombers. You can clearly see them in these picts from 1964. It would be great to clear up the 50 plus year old mystery for me.

Thanks, sasmith

http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/sasmi ... q.jpg.html
http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/sasmi ... g.jpg.html
http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/sasmi ... t.jpg.html

[Mark Allen M]

The good ole days

If you have some time you may want to look here. (facebook page)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Convers ... ul/photos/


"About 1964. Old bombers seen left corner. Derelicts we used to play in as kids until they found us and kicked us out. Bohrer lake and northern development in Inver Grove visible." Gary Granfors


1949 view with Concord St and Mississippi in background. Control tower can be seen.


Looking southeast. Farmhouse in far lower left corner still stands today on W Douglas St. Very little southward development. about 1949


1940 view looking east at the frames for the WWII bowstring hangars which still stand today.


Earliest photo known. looking east.Union Cemetery visible. Henry Ave passed north to south all the way to Inver Grove then.


TB-25N which the photo states was located in St Paul Minn in the early 1960's before being moved.
J. baugher states: 43-27712 converted to TB-25N. On static display at Pima Air and Space Museum, Tucson, AZ marked as '0-32712/BD-712'.
Reported 1968 displayed at MASDC main gate, moved Oct 1969 to Pima County Museum.

[Mark Allen M]

Here's your photos.

[Red Tail]

CAF Minnesota Wing hangar is the one with the closed doors next to the big black tanks (Those tanks were part of the heating system for the airfield). Too bad the City of St. Paul decided to tear down the barracks 10 or so years ago. If not for that, all the original buildings would still be standing and in use.

John

[Lon Moer]

This is the B-25 in Mark's posted picture;
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25registry/b25-4327712.html

from just a quick scan through the registry I came up with this other potential;
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25registry/b25-458884.html

and this was the only PB4Y that I could find on the registry that had been in Minn.
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b24registry/pb4y-59876.html

[Warbirdnerd]

Two Mitchells that were also owned by Lysdale Flying Service @Fleming are still in the Twin Cities and may have been some of the ones you saw stored there in '64.
The CAF's Miss Mitchell and Pat Harker's Lady Luck-
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25regis ... 29869.html
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25regis ... 58884.html

[Lon Moer]

Another B-25 in the St Paul area at that time;
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25registry/b25-4430324.html

[CoastieJohn]

Another B-25 in the St Paul area at that time;
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25registry/b25-4430324.html

Interesting to see Ken McBride owns (ed) it.

[JohnTerrell]

My dad took this photo of a Privateer in 1958, but it just says "Liberator bomber St. Paul '58" on the reverse (he was only 13 at the time), so I believe it was taken at the Downtown St. Paul airport, rather than Fleming. This Privateer ended up eventually becoming a water bomber ("Tanker 42"), but was destroyed in 1972. Although my dad is no longer alive, I recall him talking about the Privateer/bombers at Fleming, and I've run into a couple other guys over the years who remember crawling around them as well, in the early 60's.

[jamesintucson]

Here is a newer photo of 43-27712. It is now painted in its correct World War II markings. The new hangar with the B-25, the PB4Y, PBY, and so on is now open to the public.

[B-25 MM Jim]

Miss Mitchell was one of Lysdale's B-25's as well at that time.

[aerovin]

From the aircraft histories in B-25 Mitchell in Civil Service:

Jack Lysdale, doing business as Aircraft Rental Services, purchased four surplus USAF TB-25Ns in October 1958: 45-8884 (initial civil was N3156G); 44-30324 (initial civil was N3161G), 44-31032 (initial civil was N3174G), and 44-29869 (initial civil was N3160G). It appears all were stored at Fleming Field from 1958 until 1965 and later.

(Edit) The photo of 43-27712 in this posting does not appear to be in Minnesota (??). I had always thought this B-25 went from the USAF directly to DM storage and then to the Pima museum. What ties it to Lysdale?

Presuming these to be the four airplanes:
45-8884 flies as N5833B (Lady Luck) from Anoka County in Minnesota.
44-30324 is stored at San Martin, CA
44-29869 flies as N27493 with the CAF at Fleming Field.
44-31032 is on static display at the March Field Museum in Riverside, CA.

Last edited by aerovin on Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[B-25 MM Jim]

I would respectfully say that B-25 Mitchell in Civil Service is missing some info. Miss Mitchell (44-29869, N3160G) was also purchased by Lysdale in '58. Gary Lysdale confirms this and had photo evidence as well. My guess is she's one of the 4, but I could speak to Gary to find out definitively.

[aerovin]

I would respectfully say that B-25 Mitchell in Civil Service is missing some info. Miss Mitchell (44-29869, N3160G) was also purchased by Lysdale in '58. Gary Lysdale confirms this and had photo evidence as well. My guess is she's one of the 4, but I could speak to Gary to find out definitively.

Yes, my posting was premature and the book does show this as a fourth surplus TB-25N purchased by Lysdale in October 1958. I edited my post...

[Pooner]

Great shot of the Privateer!

Here's some information about this one... N6816D was converted to air tanker configuration not long after this photo was taken and turned into an aerial firefighting platform. The conversion consisted of removing all military equipment and fitting it with retardant tanks as placed in the bomb bays. Operated and operated by Bill Dempsey of Wenairco, she retained her Navy 1830 PW engines. She became Tanker 42. Some of the conversion work was conducted at Dempsey's Rantoul, KS facility.

The airplane caught fire in July 1972 and the subsequent flames destroyed the aircraft cockpit and center section. There were no injuries reported to the pilot and co-pilot who were crewing the a/c that day on firefighting contract work in Washington state.

I'm wondering, sasmith, might there have been another airplane on the field as either scrapped or used by FD for live burn training? You are correct in that there was a fire associated with this Privateer but as stated above it was in Washington, several years later. It is certainly conceivable that another airplane on Fleming Field during this time period could have met that fate. But it wasn't N6816D.

After the Washington incident, the damaged airframe was pulled off of the runway and parked behind the firm's hangar. The remains of the airframe somehow escaped scrapping and was eventually acquired by T & G Aviation, an aerial application firm in Phoenix, AZ. The remains were trucked down to Buckeye, AZ where the firm operated two Privateers as air tankers. One was lost in a firefighting mishap in 1974 (Charlie 50), and the other (Charlie 30) flew tanker duty through 1990 when it was acquired by a Texas-based museum for restoration.

N6816D became something of the ultimate "organ donor" for her spare parts post 1992. Having been built by the same manufacturing plant (Convair) the Privateer and Liberator shared some parts commonality. Some of the remains of N6816D have scattered around the globe.

Her outer wing panels are fitted to the B-24 M restoration project in Australia.

Some landing gear components were shared with Collings Foundation's B-24 J and CAF's LB-30 Diamond Lil.

The tail section of this airplane is in the capable hands of staff and volunteers at Yankee Air Museum in Michigan and is being rebuilt as a Liberator tail.

Main landing gear was incorporated into the fiberglass B-24 replica on display at Lackland AFB, TX.

Nose gear and other airframe parts were incorporated into the static B-24 D restoration at Hill AFB, UT.

The rudder went to USN for Privateer BuNo 66261 after the Pensacola, FL aircraft was battered by a hurricane and suffered significant storm damage.

At least two original engine mounts are mounted on BuNo. 59819 (N3739G) now at Pima Air Museum, Tucson, AZ. She's wearing the tail skid assembly from Tanker 42, too.

Other parts have been incorporated into BuNo. 66302 (N2871G) which is currently the only flying Privateer as owned by 4Y-2 LLC of Phoenix, AZ. The tail feathers and horizontal stab, still painted with USFS Tanker 42 identifier, is in storage in Tempe, AZ.

Great post, and interesting to see the survivor pedigree of the airplanes from this field!

- Robert in PHX