Time to ask a rare opinion ...

[Mark Allen M]

I read an interesting post on another forum this morning. Although nothing about the fellas post was particularly new or earth shaking to me, I did find it to be yet another reminder of the value of thought and reflection as to what the real reasons we, as enthusiasts for warbirds, find to be our main attraction to them. FWIW I agree with the majority of it and certainly respect and appreciate his words, and I've posted enough photos over the years to more than likely represent my predominate interests. I've seen enough "war is h*ll" in many of the photos I've posted to have engrained an everlasting vision of what warbirds truly mean to me. But that's just me ...

I'll let you (respectfully) decide what your thoughts are about his post if you care to comment, but more interesting would be your thoughts on what are your own priorities, values and interests in these old airplanes.

BTW he was referring to the photos in this thread as the basis for his post and carried that into the EAA Airventure experience at the end.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57153

"Ah, yes, the detritus of war: think how better off we'd be if that money and development effort had been spent on peaceful purposes, but Hitler was greedy, and that's how one greedy person can affect all of us. Remember that whenever you enter a voting booth...

Everything in these photos was eventually dug up by locals, cut up and sold as scrap to visiting Japanese ships, who would transport the piles back to Japan for smelting. It was actually an authorized activity, although an unofficial part of the Marshall plan. It provided the islanders with an income source, and kept the economy growing in Japan: all those aerial swords, melted into productive, peacetime products.

War is so hellish, that as soon as it's over, people want to just put the h*ll behind them and convert everything that reminds them of it into something hopeful. That is why there are so few examples remaining of German, Italian, and Japanese WWII aircraft. The victors got to keep their toys, but very few of them remain, too, as war is hellish for combat vets and their families on both sides. With the distance of time, it's easy to forget just how hellish it was, and so we spend millions to restore these old gals in an effort to remember those who fell for our freedom. If only there was a way to equally remember the hellish conditions they died in. A freshly restored warbird, resplendent in its polished aluminum and Iron, represents a glorious past that existed only in the minds of those who were never there. What are the chances of a dirty, grimy, bloody, shot up, and patched together warbird receiving a Lindy? What are the chances the owner would be asked to move his old girl off Wittman Field... "

A very fascinating and interesting post and I thank him for posting it.

[JohnB]

He's entitled to his opinion.
But preservation/restoration is a legit way to recall and remember history.

Should we build a subdivision on Gettysburg? Better yet, recover the chair Lincoln was shot in and donate it to Goodwill.
Perhaps before he tells other people what to do with their money, he'll donate his aircraft (if he has one..doubtful) or Subaru and give the money to charity.

Really, I'd like to think an aviation minded person would know better, the planes aren't glorifying war.
Yes, war isn't as nice as the (well meaning ) re-enactors portray it..it was a lot more than Coke and Betty Grable pinups...but it wasn't all Schweinfurt either.
For a lot of GIs, the way was the adventure of their lives...as hard and bad as it was, many wouldn't trade it for anything.

For those that didn't come back, I'd like to think every time a warbird is aloft, it's a memorial to them. The day the last B-17 flies, we'll all be poorer for it.

A photographer/writer for Flying magazine wrote something similar years ago, he called the CAF a bunch of grownups playing war.

Last edited by JohnB on Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[quemerford]

For a lot of GIs, the war was the adventure of their lives..as hard and bad as it was, many wouldn't trade it for anything.

deleted.

Last edited by quemerford on Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Snake45]

"Ah, yes, the detritus of war: think how better off we'd be if that money and development effort had been spent on peaceful purposes, but Hitler was greedy, and that's how one greedy person can affect all of us. "

Well, without WWII, the aviation progress that occurred in that six years would have probably taken 20 or 30 or more.

Think of it: When WWII began, nearly all the participants were still operating fabric-covered biplanes. Six years later two of them had jets operational and a third about to have them operational. How long would that progress have taken in the depression-wracked peacetime?

[JohnB]

Well, without WWII, the aviation progress that occurred in that six years would have probably taken 20 or 30 or more.

I made that exact point the other day to my nephew (a 2Lt in the ANG).

We'd probably just be getting jets now...

BTW: Hitler wasn't "greedy"...looking for power like all politicians, but not "greedy" in the anti-business jargon of today (where being greedy seems to be the worst sin of all.)

[Mark Allen M]

Well hmmm! OK! .... is the guy entitled to his own opinions? sure why not!, just like the rest of us. As long as it's not too far out there.
So now that that's out of the way and we all agree ...

I've read his post several times now to see if I missed anything and nope! I still feel I understand where he was going. His statement about today's warbirds is to an extent quite valid IMO. He simply stated that although some of today's pristine warbird restorations are indeed a cherished work of art and exact in detail in every way possible by some owners, they still do not reflect the true portrayal of what they looked like during the war, and understandably so. I don't believe he, nor I, have any negative feelings towards todays preservation/restoration as a legitimate way to recall and remember history as they certainly have their places in the remembrance department, but if someone IMHO wanted a true 'feeling' of what some of these old airplanes were truly like during the war I'd suggest the aircraft in the photo below as one of the better examples that exists today. Although some would surely state that a 'flying' example of a corsair today would be a better example of what they were like during the war. And of course that's a valid argument as well.



As for a couple of other posted statements? ...

Perhaps before he tells other people what to do with their money, he'll donate his aircraft (if he has one..doubtful) or Subaru and give the money to charity

.
Nice! .. No where do I feel the poster in question is suggesting to anyone what to do with their money. Try reading it again perhaps?

Really, I'd like to think an aviation minded person would know better, the planes aren't glorifying war.

Again unfounded as I see nothing to suggest this.

As for Hitler being greedy? Sure he was, not only did he and his crew concur other countries, but pillaged them of art and other valuables as well .... but as they say "with victory comes the spoils", so there's an argument there for some I suppose. "It takes only three things to win a war: money, money and money. Hitler, however, took this military economic maxim to the extreme, elevating simple robbery to state policy. He plundered neighboring countries for their natural resources, even attempting to exterminate a race of people for the use of their personal wealth" ... sounds like a lot of greed and hate in there.

Well, without WWII, the aviation progress that occurred in that six years would have probably taken 20 or 30 or more.

Valid and well known point. Yet I'm quite convinced there would have been several millions of people who would have been more than happy to have had a chance to wait out those 20 to 30 years. I'm sure two of my uncles, if they had survived the war, would have been happy to have waited for crappy airline food.

For a lot of GIs, the war was the adventure of their lives...as hard and bad as it was, many wouldn't traded it for anything.

About 1/2 true depending on what veteran you talk to. Far too many veterans past and present live(d) a world of terror and pain because of what they went through. Many took their nightmares to their graves without mentioning one word about their experiences to anyone. I've spoken to enough past and present veterans to know that many would have traded plenty to have missed their "adventures" ... God bless them all.

And FWIW, just because many vets "hated" everything that had to do with their "adventures" doesn't make them any less a hero for their sacrifices and service to their countries. Not every vet was 'gung ho"! to go to war.

Interesting posts.

[Mark Allen M]

Some gutless punk hacked my Photobucket account and deleted photos from this post so no use keeping it.

Last edited by Mark Allen M on Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:49 am, edited 4 times in total.

[Mark Allen M]

might as well get rid of this one too

[TheBigBadGman]

I was going to save my thoughts on this for later but I’ll try and summarize my views on the matter.

First off, I feel like I might be one of the few, other than Mark, who agree entirely with the original quote. In fact, my opinions may be even harsher. As far as I am concerned, the litmus test comes down to this: exactly what separates this warbird from the classic car community?

After all, most car restorations have little in common with the original car; antique cars were unwieldy gas-guzzlers with drab paint-jobs – who wants that? Just like in those old cars, it is not uncommon to find warbirds with flashy paint schemes and comfort amenities alien to the aircraft’s wartime service.

I guess that is where the question of preservation vs. restoration comes in as well as the nagging problem of funding. Still, as much as I enjoy seeing veterans reunited with their old mounts, I am always nagged by the feeling that we are often not honoring them so much as we are humoring them. Let us never forget that these aircraft were designed to kill, not serve as tax-deductible hot-rods. For every time you hear a veteran say he loved that airplane, remember that it is likely because he expected to die in one.

Don’t get me wrong, I love seeing a flyer as much as the next warbird enthusiast. But, if I had to define what it is I look for, it is those warbird owners who go out of their way to talk about the airmen as well as the aircraft; i.e., they treat their warbird like a museum piece rather than just a fancy old airplane. If it is a choice between accuracy and seeing it fly, I’m going for accuracy – I want to learn from the past, not see a facsimile of it. It is for this reason that I have the utmost respect for guys like Taigh who restore bombsights, radios, and turrets and give demonstrations to the public. Some veterans might have enjoyed aspects of their military service, but it was certainly not a joyride. I want to see what they endured and how they did it.

I guess it’s like the old Hollywood adage that it is impossible to make a war movie that doesn’t make war look exciting. I’m not saying that we are sugarcoating the role played by warbirds in wartime (though some do go that far), I just feel that we should strive to make sure people understand what they are looking at. Just like those military museums who cater to children as a means of advertisement, at what point does our fascination with antique military equipment end up demeaning their role in history?

There may not be an easy answer, but I wouldn’t throw out the question.

[JohnB]

In my early morning haste, I did misread some of the post, the guy's comments weren't quite as bad as I thought. Sorry.

As for a couple of other posted statements? ...

Glad to see you're keeping an open mind and not stooping to condescension

Nice! .. No where do I feel the poster in question is suggesting to anyone what to do with their money. Try reading it again perhaps? [/quote:]

Read the final paragraph of the OP...sounds like it to me..."...and so we spend millions to restore these old gals in an effort to remember those who fell for our freedom.".

As for Hitler being greedy? Sure he was, not only did he and his crew concur other countries, but pillaged them of art and other valuables as well .... but as they say "with victory comes the spoils", so there's an argument there for some I suppose. "It takes only three things to win a war: money, money and money. Hitler, however, took this military economic maxim to the extreme, elevating simple robbery to state policy. He plundered neighboring countries for their natural resources, even attempting to exterminate a race of people for the use of their personal wealth" ... sounds like a lot of greed and hate in there.

Again, monetary greed had little to do with it. Yes, you can say he was greedy for power and Germany for land, but the main reason Hitler was attractive was he offered hope and change for a nation crippled by the conditions of the treaty of Versailles and demanded by France and the UK.

I’ve never read anything about the holocaust that attributed getting people’s assets as the primary reason for it. Certainly, the confiscated property was a “bonus” but hardly the motivating factor. Attributing theft as the motive is a great disservice to those lost; Hitler’s war against the Jews was far more insidious than that.

About 1/2 true depending on what veteran you talk to. ...And FWIW, just because many vets "hated" everything that had to do with their "adventures" doesn't make them any less a hero for their sacrifices and service to their countries. Not every vet was 'gung ho"! to go to war.

Yes, it depends on experiences. I haven't spoken to many vets as scarred by the war as you seem to indicate. My dad flew B-17s, one uncle was a 8th AF Nav and spent time as a POW, another uncle flew gliders into Normandy. The father of a childhood friend was a Doolittle raider, a neighbor was a Tuskegee airmen. None said it was a picnic, but none were ruined by it. They said it as a dirty business that had to be done. Nothing more or less. Of course if I spent time in a VA psych hospital, my experiences would be different, but I believe mine are probably more typical of the norm than what you describe.

[Mark Allen M]

In my early morning haste, I did misread some of the post, the guy's comments weren't quite as bad as I thought. Sorry.

No need to be sorry, I can understand that and there's nothing 'bad' about his comments .... just like yours and mine, simply differences of opinion.

He's entitled to his opinion.

And as you state above, your just as entitled to your opinions as I, and as the OP. It's trying to state one's opinions without insulting others that's the tricky deal on internet forums.

Glad to see you're keeping an open mind and not stooping to condescension .

I'm also glad I didn't stoop to insulting someone whom I know nothing about and giving the guy the benefit of the doubt that he actually knows what he's talking about.
If you disagree with someone then (respectfully) disagree ... without bashing the dude, group or organization in the process. (a certain canned Tighar thread comes to mind)
It's certainly much better than posting this nonsense: "Perhaps before he tells other people what to do with their money, he'll donate his aircraft (if he has one..doubtful) or Subaru and give the money to charity".

Read the final paragraph of the OP...sounds like it to me..."...and so we spend millions to restore these old gals in an effort to remember those who fell for our freedom."

I've read it more than once, and if it wasn't for the fact that he's a warbird owner and was more than likely referring to himself as well ... I'd dismiss it.

Again, monetary greed had little to do with it. ..

Monetary greed had a LOT to do with Hitler's decisions and it's well documented he had much animosity towards the Jews for what he believed to be their financial greed. As well as way too many other reasons for what he believed to be his vision of his world. Lots to get into here for this conversation to handle.

Yes, you can say he was greedy for power and Germany for land, but the main reason Hitler was attractive was he offered hope and change for a nation crippled by the conditions of the treaty of Versailles and demanded by France and the UK.

Yes I did say he was greedy, you said he wasn't, then you say he was ... but you are indeed correct here.

I’ve never read anything about the holocaust that attributed getting people’s assets as the primary reason for it..

Never stated it was the, or a, primary reason, but it was, and did become, part of the plan.

Certainly, the confiscated property was a “bonus” but hardly the motivating factor.

Disagree, it was 'a' motivating factor, but not necessarily 'the' motivating factor.

Attributing theft as the motive is a great disservice to those lost; Hitler’s war against the Jews was far more insidious than that..

Seriously?!!! ... a disservice to those lost? You had a nice debate going on until now. Theft was not his main motive and I've never stated it was, but very much a part of his process to achieve his goals. No question about that and it doesn't take too long to research it. You'll never find me 'diservicing' anyone who had anything to do with that God-awful war. How many photo threads do I have to post to prove this? ...

Hitler’s war against the Jews was far more insidious than that..

Agree ...

Yes, it depends on experiences. I haven't spoken to many vets as scarred by the war as you seem to indicate.

Trust me, there's no 'indication' on my part, but rather plenty of facts on both ends of your spectrum. Not ONE vet anywhere that I have ever spent any time talking with stated he enjoyed war. Enjoyed military service at times? sure, but not war. Don't confuse the two.
Anyone who "enjoys" war has some major league screws loose ....

Anything else? ...

[Mark Allen M]

Yes, it depends on experiences. I haven't spoken to many vets as scarred by the war as you seem to indicate. My dad flew B-17s, one uncle was a 8th AF Nav and spent time as a POW, another uncle flew gliders into Normandy. The father of a childhood friend was a Doolittle raider, a neighbor was a Tuskegee airmen. None said it was a picnic, but none were ruined by it. They said it as a dirty business that had to be done. Nothing more or less. Of course if I spent time in a VA psych hospital, my experiences would be different, but I believe mine are probably more typical of the norm than what you describe.

I feel the need to state one last post regarding your statements above. And I'll make it as clear and precise as I can for you and then I'll be done (as this thread is starting to go further south than it needed to go) First, I'm happy for you that you have relatives and friends who weren't 'ruined' by their experiences while serving during wartime. I'm happy for you and grateful for them. Every single Uncle I had served during time of war. Dad and Mom as well. Lost a couple of them and the rest came home and seemed to live fulfilled lives. (at least on the exterior) I will not debate with anyone the percentage of vets who either suffer / suffered or don't from what they experienced during the wars they served in. I couldn't begin to tell you any statistics regarding the matter, and quite frankly statistics can be receiving. If just ONE VET has, or is, suffering in anyway, that's one too many for me. You see my threads, those threads are created not only for the entertainment and education value for all of us who enjoy this stuff, but very much just one of my ways to remember, support and show compassion and caring towards ALL vets who served either during wartime or not. I'm not the only one here on WIX doing this and I'm grateful to other members who do similar (you included) ... and accolades are for losers!!! Nothing I ever posted here on WIX is about me, it's all about them. Thankfully others feel the same way.

... But I will NOT debate with anyone the perceived "typical of the norm" as to whom amongst veterans is scarred or not by serving during wartime. You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is human cruelty at it's very worst, and you cannot refine it.

I wish your relatives and friends who served nothing but peace. They earned it.

[p51]

Anyone here, for the most part, will be like-minded and not likely see warbirds as a 'glorification' of war.
But not everyone feels that way. Several co-workers and a former neighbor think it's reprehensible that I take part in WW2 living history displays (just displays, we don't do the blank shooting in the woods stuff, not that there's anything wrong with that, IMHO). One went so far as to have a lawyer look into even if it was legal, with the intent of having an event we were putting on cancelled.
That guy was simply nuts, but still, there are plenty of people who feel nothing should be preserved, written about, or even spoken of again. What's past is past and there's no reason to go on about it ever again, some think. My wife is one of them, along with most of her family (you can imagine the arguments I've gotten into over the years). She's mellowed over 15 years of marriage, though and she even showed up at group function of mine in 1940s dress/hairdo, something I never thought I'd see.
Still, I've met plenty of people who not only don't 'get' warbirds, re-enactors or museums devoted to wartime, they feel none should exist at all. One I encountered at a school event I was speaking at this fall said he thought it was 'criminal' that movies like "Fury" are allowed to be made. He felt that all war movies glorified war. I suggested he watch, "Johnny Got his Gun," or "A Bridge Too far" which were the best examples I could think of that were anti-war films. He wasn't having it. Again, he's the extreme, but people are like that out there, make no mistake.
We all hardly ever see them at airshows for pretty obvious reasons.
And those who don't hate the stuff still don't 'get' it. People, generally, are short-sighted and never think of saving stuff until it's all gone. Just ask anyone into old cars or antiques!
The real reason there are so few Axis planes around is that people were trying to rebuild their countries where they were, and few Americans thought it made sense to bring some over here, as nobody put a value on them at the time you could still find them.

[JimH]

If someone asked me to sum up my years of touring with Collings it would boil down to this photo I took Arizona. I don't know what he was thinking, nor did I talk to him. This was his private moment of reflection. It was a humbling moment that summed up every veteran that I have seen, listened to, and photographed over the last 14 years.

[L-4Pilot]

Great photo JimH