A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American AFs
Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:22 am
Hi all,
I've been researching the colours of the P-47 Thunderbolts of the Colombian Air Force and after finding some visual material for my project I got curious about these planes' origins. I have heard of some D-Day vet Dakotas still flying in the Llanos Orientales - so I got curious about these Thuds - however I have come up against some brickwalls trying to dig up further info, like serial numbers, previous units and what not.
Anyway - my questions:
* Was there a U.S policy/plan to sell off WWII surplus to friendly nations at the time? I ask because the FAC also got a few Mitchells, some Invaders and so on... and I doubt they were factory-fresh...
* Are there any ways I can trace serial numbers back through their service? I have found some serial numbers allegedly belonging to these Thuds but when [I look them up](http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html) they either bounce back empty or show up belonging to other airframes - and locations. I could be looking this up wrong as well.... I gave a few reads to Joe's website but I seriously don't understand the system (which is why I say I'm probably looking wrong)
* I've heard that these Thuds ended up pushed into a river or something... haven't been able to find sources through.
* What visual resources (print!) do you recommend to learn more about Latin American Air Forces aircraft over the years?
Below are a few Thuds I have found the shady info about:
>* FAC830 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55951 ex-USAF45-49412
>* FAC831 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55983 ex-USAF45-49444
>* FAC832 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55984 ex-USAF45-49445 written off 08aug50
>* FAC833 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55985 ex-USAF45-49446
>* FAC834 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55987 ex-USAF45-49448 written off 27oct50
>* FAC835 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55994 ex-USAF45-49455
>* FAC836 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-56029 ex-USAF45-49490 written off 10jul55
I came across this book *Alas Militares Colombianas* it's full of errors - but thought I should mention it in case anyone also has heard of it.
Thanks in advance!
I've been researching the colours of the P-47 Thunderbolts of the Colombian Air Force and after finding some visual material for my project I got curious about these planes' origins. I have heard of some D-Day vet Dakotas still flying in the Llanos Orientales - so I got curious about these Thuds - however I have come up against some brickwalls trying to dig up further info, like serial numbers, previous units and what not.
Anyway - my questions:
* Was there a U.S policy/plan to sell off WWII surplus to friendly nations at the time? I ask because the FAC also got a few Mitchells, some Invaders and so on... and I doubt they were factory-fresh...
* Are there any ways I can trace serial numbers back through their service? I have found some serial numbers allegedly belonging to these Thuds but when [I look them up](http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html) they either bounce back empty or show up belonging to other airframes - and locations. I could be looking this up wrong as well.... I gave a few reads to Joe's website but I seriously don't understand the system (which is why I say I'm probably looking wrong)
* I've heard that these Thuds ended up pushed into a river or something... haven't been able to find sources through.
* What visual resources (print!) do you recommend to learn more about Latin American Air Forces aircraft over the years?
Below are a few Thuds I have found the shady info about:
>* FAC830 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55951 ex-USAF45-49412
>* FAC831 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55983 ex-USAF45-49444
>* FAC832 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55984 ex-USAF45-49445 written off 08aug50
>* FAC833 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55985 ex-USAF45-49446
>* FAC834 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55987 ex-USAF45-49448 written off 27oct50
>* FAC835 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-55994 ex-USAF45-49455
>* FAC836 P-47D-40-RA s/n399-56029 ex-USAF45-49490 written off 10jul55
I came across this book *Alas Militares Colombianas* it's full of errors - but thought I should mention it in case anyone also has heard of it.
Thanks in advance!
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:30 am
Felipe,
You need the individual aircraft record cards (IARC) from AFHRA at Maxwell AFB: available to view on-site or also on microfilm roll. From the s'ns you have there, ordering will be easy - probably on just one microfilm roll. For those s/n not known, you'll have to trawl through a lot of 'not applicable' aircraft data. However it can be a lot of fun digging up this type of information.
It does look like you might be able to pin your starting list down a bit though - from your brief list it looks like the FAC aircraft may have all been F-47D-40-RA subtypes and if that is the case you'll slim your list down a great deal and at least have a chance of finding them all. I have done a similar thing in the past with all of the F-86s (and there are 7,000-odd of them, not including FJ Fury etc) and it's not until you go through these record cards that you find similarities (delivery location, MAP code, delivery date etc), and these in turn help you to find those missing machines.
One final point: there are many websites which purport to have listings of aircraft types by s/n, but it's my experience that many of these lists are just plagiarised from written texts which themselves were incorrect and/or plagiarised. Hence if you want to do a full and worthwhile job, go to the primary source data and bypass decades of mistakes and repeated copying of mistakes.
Good luck!
Oh - and regarding aircraft passed to 'foreign' nations, there were a number of methods by which this was done, the usual MAP/MDAP loan requiring the aircraft to either be purchased, destroyed or returned at the end of their service. Some nations which were on the fringe of being 'friendly' in the late '40s/early '50s (for instance, Yugoslavia) managed to get free MAP loan of some aircraft types (F-84, T-33, F-86 etc), but as this nation became more friendly with Warsaw Pact nations, the US government decided that further aircraft could still be supplied, but that from a certain date (circa 1955 if memory serves), the Yugolsavs would have to pay for them.
Interesting subject and in sore need of a book to describe it all!
You need the individual aircraft record cards (IARC) from AFHRA at Maxwell AFB: available to view on-site or also on microfilm roll. From the s'ns you have there, ordering will be easy - probably on just one microfilm roll. For those s/n not known, you'll have to trawl through a lot of 'not applicable' aircraft data. However it can be a lot of fun digging up this type of information.
It does look like you might be able to pin your starting list down a bit though - from your brief list it looks like the FAC aircraft may have all been F-47D-40-RA subtypes and if that is the case you'll slim your list down a great deal and at least have a chance of finding them all. I have done a similar thing in the past with all of the F-86s (and there are 7,000-odd of them, not including FJ Fury etc) and it's not until you go through these record cards that you find similarities (delivery location, MAP code, delivery date etc), and these in turn help you to find those missing machines.
One final point: there are many websites which purport to have listings of aircraft types by s/n, but it's my experience that many of these lists are just plagiarised from written texts which themselves were incorrect and/or plagiarised. Hence if you want to do a full and worthwhile job, go to the primary source data and bypass decades of mistakes and repeated copying of mistakes.
Good luck!
Oh - and regarding aircraft passed to 'foreign' nations, there were a number of methods by which this was done, the usual MAP/MDAP loan requiring the aircraft to either be purchased, destroyed or returned at the end of their service. Some nations which were on the fringe of being 'friendly' in the late '40s/early '50s (for instance, Yugoslavia) managed to get free MAP loan of some aircraft types (F-84, T-33, F-86 etc), but as this nation became more friendly with Warsaw Pact nations, the US government decided that further aircraft could still be supplied, but that from a certain date (circa 1955 if memory serves), the Yugolsavs would have to pay for them.
Interesting subject and in sore need of a book to describe it all!
Last edited by quemerford on Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:45 am
Felipe,
There is a good book on the subject that includes P-47s that went to Colombia, Dan Hagedorn's "Republic P-47 Thunderbolt The Final Chapter, Latin American Air Forces Service" Phalanx, ISBN 0-9625860-1-3
Unfortunately that book has been out of print for a very long time.
Another of Dan's books is "Central And Caribbean Air Forces" (Air Britain Historians) ISBN 0-85130 210-6"
If you contact me off-board, and provide your e-mail information, I can send you all I have on Colombian P-47s, data and images (from different sources).
Also, I would like to point you out to www.laahs.com (The Latin American Aviation Historical Society) where you will also be able to find additional information.
Saludos,
Tulio
There is a good book on the subject that includes P-47s that went to Colombia, Dan Hagedorn's "Republic P-47 Thunderbolt The Final Chapter, Latin American Air Forces Service" Phalanx, ISBN 0-9625860-1-3
Unfortunately that book has been out of print for a very long time.
Another of Dan's books is "Central And Caribbean Air Forces" (Air Britain Historians) ISBN 0-85130 210-6"
If you contact me off-board, and provide your e-mail information, I can send you all I have on Colombian P-47s, data and images (from different sources).
Also, I would like to point you out to www.laahs.com (The Latin American Aviation Historical Society) where you will also be able to find additional information.
Saludos,
Tulio
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:24 am
quemerford wrote:Felipe,
You need the aircraft individual record cards from AFHRA at Maxwell AFB: available to view on-site or also on microfilm roll. From the s'ns you have there, ordering will be easy - probably on just one microfilm roll. For those s/n not known, you'll have to trawl through a lot of 'not applicable' aircraft data. However it can be a lot of fun digging up this type of information.
It does look like you might be able to pin your starting list down a bit though - from your brief list it looks like the FAC aircraft may have all been F-47D-40-RA subtypes and if that is the case you'll slim your list down a great deal and at least have a chance of finding them all.
this sounds complicated - I'm in Canada and this is the first time I get to research this type of stuff - can I order copies? I've done research work before, geared towards (music) documentaries I've worked on, just not for aviation history. I'm doing this as a 'back to my roots' project if you will. Having said that - where do I find steps or how to go about doing this record cards? for now I'm focusing on the Thuds but if I can find more info I will expand to other types of course.
quemerford wrote:Interesting subject and in sore need of a book to describe it all!
yessir! jus tryinna see how much info I can find
Tulio wrote:Felipe,
If you contact me off-board, and provide your e-mail information, I can send you all I have on Colombian P-47s, data and images (from different sources).
Saludos,
Tulio
Don Tulio! Que gusto encontrarlo! I found some of your posts via Google - Thank you!
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 am
Just regarding C-47/DC-3 types...The military serial number in not always constant in transfers. The one number that appears to remain a constant is the manufacturer's Construction Number. After military service, the manufacturers C/N will likely follow the plane like the VIN number on a car...vs. the "license plate" or tail number on the plane.
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:25 pm
Pathfinder wrote:Just regarding C-47/DC-3 types...The military serial number in not always constant in transfers. The one number that appears to remain a constant is the manufacturer's Construction Number. After military service, the manufacturers C/N will likely follow the plane like the VIN number on a car...vs. the "license plate" or tail number on the plane.
i did not know this, thank you! and c/n is different than s/n and ex-USAF 45-* numbers?
thanks!
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:32 pm
Another number to understand is the 0- tail number which indicates an aircraft that is older than ten years in service.
By the way--a "Thud" is the nickname for the F-105 VN vintage fighter. A "Thunderbolt" refers to the WW2 P-47. Thunderbolt II refers to the A-10 "Wart Hog".
By the way--a "Thud" is the nickname for the F-105 VN vintage fighter. A "Thunderbolt" refers to the WW2 P-47. Thunderbolt II refers to the A-10 "Wart Hog".
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:34 pm
Pathfinder wrote:Just regarding C-47/DC-3 types...The military serial number in not always constant in transfers. The one number that appears to remain a constant is the manufacturer's Construction Number. After military service, the manufacturers C/N will likely follow the plane like the VIN number on a car...vs. the "license plate" or tail number on the plane.
IARC's don't use c/n: the USAAF/USAF s/n is constant for recording MAP-supplied aircraft up to transfer abroad. Since Felipe is looking for USAAF service histories, the s/n is the correct way to trace these through IARC.
Felipe: Microfilm rolls can be ordered from Maxwell at circa $20 a roll. Probably most of the F-47s you're looking for are on one roll. Maxwell will supply individual scans, but of course you need to know the USAAF s/n first. That potentially brings you back to the IARCs.
FYI: I have Hagedorn's B-26/A-26 'Foreign Invaders' book, and it doesn't have USAAF histories; I doubt the other titles mentioned do either, though I concede it's several years since I looked at those other titles.
A best compromise might be to get a list of USAAF s/ns and ask Maxwell to supply IARC photocopies for these.
For info the microfilm numbers are:
* for the period new production to circa 1950: ACR-116
* for the period circa 1951 to end of 1954: AC-24
* for the period 1955 to 1960: ACA-12.
It's doubtful there is much on ACA-12 for these aircraft, since it looks like all were transferred prior to Q4, 1955; even though AC-24 would in theory cover them up to the end of 1954, I'd plump for the MAP transfers being all covered by AC-24.
Another thought: I note these are FY45 aircraft, and so it seems likely that they don't have WWII service histories.
All of this applies to the s/ns stated above: if any of the FAC F-47s were from other batches, they would likely be covered in other microfilm series.
Hope this provides a starting point. I do have some USAF Statistical Digest info for these aircraft, which gives numbers delivered, total flying hours per Quarter etc., if it's of any interest.
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:29 pm
Thank you sir! I have since sent them an email asking for info as well so your info comes in very handy. I'm thinking of compiling the lists of known/possible numbers I have for different types. I have other candidates I'd like to also find out about.
Thank you! I hope to be keeping you guys posted on this journey (that is beginning!)
Thank you! I hope to be keeping you guys posted on this journey (that is beginning!)
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:56 pm
Pathfinder wrote:Another number to understand is the 0- tail number which indicates an aircraft that is older than ten years in service.
...and the rarely-used '00-' for aircraft which were older than 20 years; most often seen on C-47s!
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:10 am
Felipe,
El gusto es mio.
I have sent you already some images and brief data on other Latin American P-47s. If you can -harder to find than hen's teeth- Hagedorn's book on the P-47, that would be a real coup.
Hagedorn has also published a book on "Lend Lease" aircraft that is loaded with information on aircraft that went not only to Europe, but also to Latin America.
A great book on the Harvard / T-6 comes from one of your fellow Canadians, Doug MacPhail who is also a member of this forum.
Saludos,
Tulio
El gusto es mio.
I have sent you already some images and brief data on other Latin American P-47s. If you can -harder to find than hen's teeth- Hagedorn's book on the P-47, that would be a real coup.
Hagedorn has also published a book on "Lend Lease" aircraft that is loaded with information on aircraft that went not only to Europe, but also to Latin America.
A great book on the Harvard / T-6 comes from one of your fellow Canadians, Doug MacPhail who is also a member of this forum.
Saludos,
Tulio
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:57 am
FAC F-47D Fleet:
(FY = Fiscal Year)
No mention in USAF Statistical Digest prior to FY53 (data not presented)
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep52 (FY53 1st Quarter): 0 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec52 (FY53 2nd Quarter): 0 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar53 (FY53 3rd Quarter): 11 active/0 inactive
F-47D deliveries to FAC in April 1953: 10
F-47D deliveries to FAC in June 1953: 1
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun53 (FY53 4th Quarter): 19 active/3 inactive (22 total agrees with above figures)
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep53 (FY54 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec53 (FY54 2nd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar54 (FY54 3rd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun54 (FY54 4th Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Cumulative deliveries by 30Jun54: 11 (note: this does not agree with totals above)
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep54 (FY55 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q1 FY 1955: 71
Cumulative deliveries by 30Sep54: 14
F-47D deliveries Q1 1955: 3
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec54 (FY55 2nd Quarter): 21 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q2 FY 1955: 219
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar55 (FY55 3rd Quarter): 21 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q3 FY 1955: 115
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun55 (FY55 4th Quarter): 19 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q4 FY 1955: 322
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep55 (FY56 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q1 FY 1956: 15
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec55 (FY56 2nd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q2 FY 1956: 0
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar56 (FY56 3rd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q3 FY 1956: 4
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun56 (FY56 4th Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q4 FY 1956: 6
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep56 (FY57 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q1 FY 1957: 0
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec56 (FY57 2nd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q2 FY 1957: 18
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar57 (FY57 3rd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q3 FY 1957: 10
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun57 (FY57 4th Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q4 FY 1957: 7
No mention after this, so assume final flights made Apr-Jun57. From the above (initial deliveries minus attrition, plus attrition deliveries) I suspect maybe around 30 aircraft in total?
(FY = Fiscal Year)
No mention in USAF Statistical Digest prior to FY53 (data not presented)
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep52 (FY53 1st Quarter): 0 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec52 (FY53 2nd Quarter): 0 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar53 (FY53 3rd Quarter): 11 active/0 inactive
F-47D deliveries to FAC in April 1953: 10
F-47D deliveries to FAC in June 1953: 1
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun53 (FY53 4th Quarter): 19 active/3 inactive (22 total agrees with above figures)
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep53 (FY54 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec53 (FY54 2nd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar54 (FY54 3rd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun54 (FY54 4th Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Cumulative deliveries by 30Jun54: 11 (note: this does not agree with totals above)
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep54 (FY55 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q1 FY 1955: 71
Cumulative deliveries by 30Sep54: 14
F-47D deliveries Q1 1955: 3
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec54 (FY55 2nd Quarter): 21 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q2 FY 1955: 219
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar55 (FY55 3rd Quarter): 21 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q3 FY 1955: 115
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun55 (FY55 4th Quarter): 19 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q4 FY 1955: 322
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep55 (FY56 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q1 FY 1956: 15
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec55 (FY56 2nd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q2 FY 1956: 0
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar56 (FY56 3rd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q3 FY 1956: 4
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun56 (FY56 4th Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q4 FY 1956: 6
F-47D in inventory on 30Sep56 (FY57 1st Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q1 FY 1957: 0
F-47D in inventory on 31Dec56 (FY57 2nd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q2 FY 1957: 18
F-47D in inventory on 31Mar57 (FY57 3rd Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q3 FY 1957: 10
F-47D in inventory on 30Jun57 (FY57 4th Quarter): 18 active/0 inactive
Flying hours Q4 FY 1957: 7
No mention after this, so assume final flights made Apr-Jun57. From the above (initial deliveries minus attrition, plus attrition deliveries) I suspect maybe around 30 aircraft in total?
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:04 pm
yes quemeford, I've been able to account for 35 F-47s received [FAC828-863]. Dates vary from accounts I've found (from the time) all agree that the Thunderbolts were retired from service in 1956 due to its 'flying coffin' reputation (and the arrival of the new jets...) my personal thoughts, the Thunderbolt was far better suited for the COIN role as it was developing - it's too bad the AF command did not chose to adapt tactics like the 15thAF in the mediterranean (i may have that one wrong?) where the P47s were used with great success as ground support and what now could be called COIN? anyway - all to say... retired too soon.
The only other P-47 I've been able to sort of trace back is 45-49102 (c/n 399-55641) apparently sent to Colombian AF as FAC407 - now on display at Museo Aeroespacial Colombiana, Bogota. The problem is that the Thunderbolt there now as far as I know is FAC861. I've heard FAC407 is actually a C-47, but can't find confirmation.
The only other P-47 I've been able to sort of trace back is 45-49102 (c/n 399-55641) apparently sent to Colombian AF as FAC407 - now on display at Museo Aeroespacial Colombiana, Bogota. The problem is that the Thunderbolt there now as far as I know is FAC861. I've heard FAC407 is actually a C-47, but can't find confirmation.
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:57 am
Seems like a fair scenario: often these MAP recipients were given aircraft ill-suited to their requirements (which might usually be termed 'internal policing') and so modern/reasonably modern fighters were not really the aircraft that were required.
At least the above gets some primary source data 'out there'; books are OK to get an overview for just a casual interest, but if you are trying to do some serious research then they can only really serve to provide a framework as a starting point.
It sounds to me like you are doing well on the latter course!
At least the above gets some primary source data 'out there'; books are OK to get an overview for just a casual interest, but if you are trying to do some serious research then they can only really serve to provide a framework as a starting point.
It sounds to me like you are doing well on the latter course!
Re: A few Q's re: warbirds that ended up in Latin American A
Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:54 am
quemerford wrote:It sounds to me like you are doing well on the latter course!
just trying to see how deep I can get
speaking of the Thunderbolts here, I also found the story of Gerhard Thyben and his involvement with FAC after WWII. I'm inclined to believe there may be other WWII vets that came to Colombia looking for work - unfortunately those stories are even harder to come across than these Thunderbolt serial numbers.